Journal Advanced planted tank - Lean dosing experience

[Sb1415]

No, I'm not saying they have Osmocote in them. I'm saying a lot of root tabs/capsules you see sold do, and I don't want the little balls in my tank.


Again, I think APT Jazz is just APT Feast in a capsule, but I could be wrong. Dennis doesn't use them because he just puts in fresh APT Feast.

Got it. Yah found a pic of the apt jazz definitely looks like that. Makes sense why Dennis would not use it. I will stick to seachem flourish then (added a pic of it as well to show the difference) Thanks

 

[Dennis Wong]

I've avoided root tabs because most of the capsules I've seen look like they have Osmocote in them which I don't think dissolves. The chemicals inside them do, but the pellet itself doesn't. I don't want those little balls on and in my substrate. I've used APT Jazz. I just shove them down into the media, but to be honest, it looks to me like it's just APT Feast put into a capsule. I could be wrong, but that's what it looks like. They are crazy expensive, so I'm not buying any more. I've just been putting spoonfuls of APT Feast around where I feel it is needed. You can buy empty capsules on Amazon and make your own APT Jazz if you want.

Lmao, Jazz isn't Feast in capsules. What a ridiculous speculation. They contain slow release pellets. if you ground it down to dust and send it to the lab for analysis, you will find the nitrogen content matching the labels. (which is magnitudes higher than any aquasoil).

 

[Mr.Shenanagins]

 

[DutchMuch]

Lmao, Jazz isn't Feast in capsules. What a ridiculous speculation. They contain slow release pellets. if you ground it down to dust and send it to the lab for analysis, you will find the nitrogen content matching the labels. (which is magnitudes higher than any aquasoil).

 

[Koan]

<Moderation>



As a rule, using modifiers like "crazy" , "ridiculous", and "Osmocote", will always come off as more provocative than you may intend.

Keep it friendly.

</Moderation>

We now return you to your regularly scheduled tank journal, already in progress

 

[Sb1415]

4 MONTHS (DAY 131)

FINDINGS and Learning:
What started as filamentous algae phase around 1.5 months continues to be present. It has been an overall frustrating experience.

Most of the advice I had received so far and things that I had read upon to tackle the algae can be summed up as

• Get your plants healthy - trim off the unhealthy stems and plan the healthy tops
• Stability of Co2, lighting
• Fertilizer
• Temperature
• Trying algicides

But after dealing with this for few months, making tweaks, resetting and also allowing stability, the algae just did not go away. I stopped posting about this on the forum for a bit, since it kept coming back to the same advice of get your plants healthy.

But, the issue was that my plants looked healthy, they pearled well and the growing tips which looked so perfect and pretty would develop the filamentous algae. I might not have the most pristine tank but i definitely kept it clean without any rotting stems and it was quite hard for me to believe that i was having issues because of unhealthy plant maintenance.

Out of sheer frustration, recently i messaged @Dennis Wong to get some input on this. He simply asked me to check ammonia and i initially was a little bit insulted since it was such a basic thing and i had this tank running for a few months. But low and behold there it was 1 ppm of ammonia. 0 nitrites and <1 nitrates. The last time i checked ammonia was way back in my other post Experience with APT Feast and it never struck me to check ammonia after.

With no dead fish, I am not sure where I would get the ammonia from, and my likely suspicion is that i crashed my cycle at some point and the system is still trying to recover. Given the low PH, the ammonia is likely not toxic to the fish at this point and they all seem to be doing well.

With this knowledge, my plan is to get more plant mass to absorb ammonia, stay on lean dosing, minimize any trimming unless there are dead stems and decrease fish feeding as well.

For future will always go back to basics, when dealing with algae.

Plant growth:
Slow but steady growth of the background stems including the P.decannensis. The midground Blyxa has turned almost red now suggesting a high PAR, S.repens is finally starting to grow well. Foreground filling in.

My hope is in the next 1-2 months the ammonia would be zero and will start trimming.

If others have thoughts and suggestions let me know,

Additional comments: I thank @Naturescapes_Rocco for sending me some really nice custom made chihiros dosing tube holders. I have'nt set them up yet but looking forward to it and will make a separate journal entry on them.

 

[Koan]

my plan is to get more plant mass to absorb ammonia

What if you also threw a bag of zeolite in the filter for a while, until you finally get the algae down?

 

[Sb1415]

What if you also threw a bag of zeolite in the filter for a while, until you finally get the algae down?

Thanks. Never heard of it before and started reading about it, interesting!

My current hypothesis is that there is some instability with the nitrifying bacteria not being present enough to convert ammonia to nitrates. I am assuming the ph changes that occurred with me tweaking the co2 affected the nitrifying bacteria as well. Would love to learn more about this, but my guess it it is something to do in addition with the conversion of ammonia to ammonium as well.

Currently I imagine there is a race between the algae and plants vs the nitrifying bacteria to see who will prevail and consume the ammonia/ammonium. My suspicion is that getting rid of ammonia by zeolite might hinder this probably healthy competition.

It does make me wonder if providing more nitrate instead might make the plants absorb less ammonium which in turn might allow more for the bacteria. But I probably would rather just wait it out since removing the algae is not really a pain. I was more frustrated about the cause of the algae (and having to cut the tip of healthy plants with algae, which I will no longer do) and now that I have a hypothesis it seems to put my mind at ease.

 

[techman81]

So if your hypothesis is correct, perhaps the addition of some live nitrifying bacteria like Dr. Tim's One-and-Only or Fritz TurboStart 700 might help get things back in balance.

 

[Sb1415]

So if your hypothesis is correct, perhaps the addition of some live nitrifying bacteria like Dr. Tim's One-and-Only or Fritz TurboStart 700 might help get things back in balance.

Yes was thinking about this, but seems like these are not designed for low ph tanks. Have you had good experience with these ? since I think you probably have similar ph.

 

[Koan]

seems like these are not designed for low ph tanks

@Dennis Wong did an experiment with and some investigation into this

kh-gh-tds /is-low-ph-in-tanks-due-to-aquasoils-softwater-a-concern" data-host="www.2hraquarist.com" data-pending="false">

Are bacteria affected due to low pH/KH in aquasoil tanks?

Does the low pH caused by CO2 injection or aquasoil affect livestock or bacteria in the planted aquarium? Should I use buffers to raise the pH?

www.2hraquarist.com

 

[techman81]

Yes was thinking about this, but seems like these are not designed for low ph tanks. Have you had good experience with these ? since I think you probably have similar ph.

I've only used them earlier in the cycling process before the tanks were planted, once the high initial ammonia levels dropped off and it was a matter of boosting nitrite to nitrate conversion.

 

[Sb1415]

@Dennis Wong did an experiment with and some investigation into this

Curious to see his response but he felt the products might not help when I had initially asked him about this. I guess it is plausible that the nitrifying bacteria is different based on the pH.

Fritz had this on their website as well, I disagree as you said based on all the prior work done by others that nitrification will stop, but maybe their bacteria sp might not work. Not sure

 

[BenB]

I somehow missed your tank pics. It looks awesome. I know you see algae, but I can't see it. I think it's great.

Our tanks are similar in size. I've not made the best selection of plants for aquascaping. I need to get stems with a smaller footprint like yours. Many of mine are too big, but I've just been enjoying growing plants. Is that the thulunadensis in the center? The yellow and green one? It looks great. Supposedly it doesn't grow without great stability, so you're doing something right. I can't believe you have so many species. I need to up my game

 

[Dennis Wong]

From what I understand, the strains of bacteria sold by commercial firms focused on strains that work most effectively under slightly alkaline conditions. These strains were chosen because they were highly effective, but needed a more alkaline environment to work - so they delivered great results under controlled conditions (at least in the short run, in the long run, biological systems tends towards diversity)

However, when researcher sudiptaw shaw did a bacteria study of the microbial distribution in his low pH, aquasoil tank, most of these strains made up an insignificant amount of the total microbial count. In matured systems, there is great diversity, and no simple dominance by 1 or 2 strains (check out his AGA 2024 talk for the full breakdown). So it is theorized that tanks naturally tended towards far greater bio diversity bacteria-wise, long term. In his own tank testing, a dip in the bio-diversity was always coupled with algae and other problems.

 

[Sb1415]

I somehow missed your tank pics. It looks awesome. I know you see algae, but I can't see it. I think it's great.

Our tanks are similar in size. I've not made the best selection of plants for aquascaping. I need to get stems with a smaller footprint like yours. Many of mine are too big, but I've just been enjoying growing plants. Is that the thulunadensis in the center. The yellow and green one? It looks great. Supposedly it doesn't grow without great stability, so you're doing something right. I can't believe you have so many species. I need to up my game

Thanks. Yes that is rotala tulunadensis courtesy of @Burr740 . I really like this plant, it grows easily and in a bushy clump (lot of side shoots even without trimming) without getting too tall. The best part is that it does not root deep so can be moved easily.

I ended up discarding a number of species which I thought were either too big (limnophila hipp.) or did not complement (limnophila Wilsonii, h.pinnatifida) or just had too much algae issue (syngonathus sp).

When I redid the scape, ran it by Dennis who suggested pushing the stems to the side and having low mid ground plants in the middle which seems to help with the layout.

The main algae are these long thin filamentous algae, that doesn’t seem to be apparent on photos unless it is a close up. I think it has to do with my iPhone camera. I do tend to remove the longer ones though. Added a pic of how it would look on close up without removal.

 

[Sb1415]

From what I understand, the strains of bacteria sold by commercial firms focused on strains that work most effectively under slightly alkaline conditions. These strains were chosen because they were highly effective, but needed a more alkaline environment to work - so they delivered great results under controlled conditions (at least in the short run, in the long run, biological systems tends towards diversity)

However, when researcher sudiptaw shaw did a bacteria study of the microbial distribution in his low pH, aquasoil tank, most of these strains made up an insignificant amount of the total microbial count. In matured systems, there is great diversity, and no simple dominance by 1 or 2 strains (check out his AGA 2024 talk for the full breakdown). So it is theorized that tanks naturally tended towards far greater bio diversity bacteria-wise, long term. In his own tank testing, a dip in the bio-diversity was always coupled with algae and other problems

Interesting! Came across this site which will test your tanks biodiversity AquaBiomics – DNA testing for aquariums and aquaculture

Not sure how reliable and way too expensive for me at 100$ but would be pretty cool to know the microbiome of each aquarists tank and how it evolves over time.

I wouldn’t be surprised if few years from now we all check our tanks biodiversity similar to the testing nitrates, ammonia etc.

Maybe this could be a nice topic for the next 2 hr aquarist in depth article!

 

[BenB]

Thanks. Yes that is rotala tulunadensis courtesy of @Burr740.

I got Syn Meta from him. His plants are nice. The degree to which there is no algae or flaws is infuriating. It's not fair.

I really like this plant, it grows easily

This is not a description I've heard associated with this plant. What I've read is that it requires consistency and it's difficult. I'm not sure I have consistency. I believe you dose APT daily. I'd still be interested in trying it sometime.

I ended up discarding a number of species which I thought were either too big (limnophila hipp.) or did not complement (limnophila Wilsonii, h.pinnatifida) or just had too much algae issue (syngonathus sp).

I tossed my H zosterfolia tonight and planted Pogo erectus and Rotala mexicana. My Syn Meta is probably too big, but I can't part with it right now. I it too much.

suggested pushing the stems to the side

Not sure what you mean. Will you explain?

The main algae are these long thin filamentous algae,

Your pic was good. In addition of the gda, I have a little bit of every algae right now except BBA and clado, but most are only a tiny bit here and there. The gda is the worst. I have that thread algae as well. It is minimal. You have a much worse case of that. So getting the gda off the glass a couple times a week isn't so bad as a full on explosion of one of the worse ones.

Your tank looks good. Let's both keep it up.

 

[Sb1415]

The degree to which there is no algae or flaws is infuriating. It's not fair.

Completely agree

There is definitely some variability from what is reported, I badly wanted the L.arcuata and everywhere I read it said it was a hardy plant but could never get it to grow. Tried 2 types of TC and emersed plant and they all melted. Guess it all has to do with the maturity. Give the rotala tulu a try, i am sure you would like it. Hopefully if i am able to get over the algae phase, I could send you some trimmings and get some flowering stalks in return when there is warmer weather !

I love the Pogostemon decannensis/erectus - interestingly i think there are few cultivars of it. The ones i got from BurrAqua were slightly broader than the TC that i got from APF. Both pretty nevertheless. Deep roots though, don't think i will be moving them for a while, which is why i placed them in the background.

Pushing the stems to the side - If you look at Dennis's tanks on his website, overwhelmingly the theme comes to having a tall background bush of 1-3 types covering the background, then these bushes or some other bushes also cover the mid/front left and mid/front right and leaves a negative space in the middle where there is a shorter slow growing plant along with a carpet. Depending upon the plant types on either side this "negative space" will move slightly to the left or right; but the core principal is to create that negative space in the middle. It is almost like a focal point but instead of having it in the background like how Josh sim or others would do, it is creating it in the middle of a dense bush - a good example where it is apparent is the A200 Samolus tank on the 2 hr aquarist website. The best analogy that i can think of is like a pearl in an oyster shell. - Maybe i am overthinking this, but this kind of helped me design this layout. In my prior layout i had the P.Decannensis going through the middle which he pointed out was dividing the whole scape into half which was making it look off. - Hope this helps.

Your tank looks good. Let's both keep it up.

thanks man - Same to you as well!

 

[BenB]

Pushing the stems to the side -

OK. I get it. I was being literal in my head. Duh. All I could picture was stems leaning to the side. So you mean, tall stems to the side, medium in the middle, and shorter growth plants in front.

When Amano would do an aquascaping demonstration, he had this way of draping the stems to the sides and front to facilitate getting more plants into the scape. In my head, that's all I could see was those stems laying to the side.