Cannot figure this out!

[Pepere]

"[Plants] are restful to look at. They have neither emotions nor conflicts.”
—Sigmund Freud

Obviously he never dealt with algae and plants in an aquarium….

 

[Burr740]

"[Plants] are restful to look at. They have neither emotions nor conflicts.”
—Sigmund Freud

Obviously he never dealt with algae and plants in an aquarium….

...or seen them hopped up on narcotics like CO2 and ferts!

(if you get it you get it)

 

[GreggZ]

...or seen them hopped up on narcotics like CO2 and ferts!

(if you get it you get it)

LOl I get it! Mine are strung out pretty much their entire lives!

 

[BenB]

Sorry to hijack your thread, but that red sword is amazing!

 

[Kwyet]

LOl I get it! Mine are strung out pretty much their entire lives!

I do love your somewhat psychedelic tank!

 

[OmidNiav]

Sooooo to add norcos and LSD to my tank??

 

[Kwyet]

Sooooo to add norcos and LSD to my tank??

Well, if adding vodka is good…

 

[Burr740]

Now that @BenB mentioned it what kind of sword is that on the left side? Its a great size and color

 

[SkaleyAquatics]

Now that @BenB mentioned it what kind of sword is that on the left side? Its a great size and color

Iguazu red is fine

Joe I believe its the Iguazu red he mentioned in the initial post.

 

[Burr740]

Joe I believe its the Iguazu red he mentioned in the initial post.

Ahh! And damn I hate it when people ask about something I just wrote 3 posts ago lolol. Oh well...I'll take a lap for that one

And boy thats a good looking plant. I like that it doesnt lay flat and all curled up like how the green one usually looks. Its why I never wanted one

 

[SkaleyAquatics]

Ahh! And damn I hate it when people ask about something I just wrote 3 posts ago lolol. Oh well...I'll take a lap for that one

And boy thats a good looking plant. I like that it doesnt lay flat and all curled up like how the green one usually looks. Its why I never wanted one

Haha it happens to all of us.

 

[OmidNiav]

Now that @BenB mentioned it what kind of sword is that on the left side? Its a great size and color

I think it is the red iguazu based on what I received it as. ALSO AS MENTIONED IN MY OP....Read Joe, Read jk

 

[Tim Harrison]

The Soil Substrate Planted Tank - a How to Guide

LOl I get it! Mine are strung out pretty much their entire lives!

A perfect existence

 

[OmidNiav]

~5 weeks later:
Here's an update after increasing my micros to recommended levels by @Burr740. I'm dosing daily (basically total suggested weekly per packet divided by 7). Also changed my macro dosing to his methods while total remains the same: 10-3-15 after WC and then two 5-1-5 during the week. Ca stayed at 35ppm and Mg stayed at 10ppm. KH 0-1. CO2 adequate (1 point drop...whatever that means). Substrate is still BDBS . I placed some root tabs a while ago and don't remember where haha but substrate is inert!

UPDATE ON PLANT GROWTH/HEALTH:

• Myrio roraima does not care what's happening around it!
• Limno wilsonii does not care what's happening around it!
• Limno barteri still fine
• Kochi: liked low micros imo as new growth is slow and slightly curled
• Macrandra var: very slowly throwing new shoots that do not look as miserable as the original stems. I think overall likes lower micro levels.
• Murdannia engelsii: Growing slowly but still sheds lower leaves from original stems. New shoots growing at the very bottom and kinda creeping!
• Ludwigia polycarpa doing good overall, not a huge difference
• Tricolor lotus doing good overall, no major changes seen so far
• Acorus gramineus is still ok
• The one seed of ottellia ulvifolia that I could germinate is still doing great
• Ammania ped golden doing ok but leaf form is not ideal
• Blood vomit is still ok but not ideal form
• Eicchornia diversifolia: better overall
• Rotala maka red (wallichii type): doing better, has bigger crowns on most stems but some look burnt! Overall better
• Hygro auriculata: doing better overall
• Stauro purple is hating life
• Stauro spatulata is hating life
• Stauro stolonifera is hating life
• Lagenandra meeboldii is better but far from ideal form
• All syngo are dead and tossed (madeira, lago grande, rio negro giant)
• Ammania gracillis mini doing better overall BUT it is starting to look more like the senegalensis that I have in the over tank
• Xyris is dead
• Myrio tuberculatum maybe better but not thriving

So my plan is to give it even more time. Maybe another month or so and then switch to dosing micros every other day as suggested on the packets. One big new understanding for me is switching from aquasoil to inert substrate (specifically sand) means re-learning all skills and focusing on water column dosing more than before. Also due to compact nature of soil, I wonder if there is enough oxygenation happening at the root level.

Omid

 

[ElleDee]

What do the root systems of the unhappy plants look like? And the happy plants? That should give you some clues about the state of your substrate.

 

[Burr740]

There are some broad generalizations in those conclusions such as "plant x likes lower micros" Ive mad the same mistakes more times than I can count, and it just doesnt work like that in the middle of several different changes

For one thing you'd have to be starting from a place where these plants were doing well already. A control if you will. Where say kochi was doing good, the only change you made (or made recently) was the micro adjustment. Then their reaction would have a certain value.

But even then, and pay attention right here; plants can balk at any sudden change. Finicky stems like rotalas, pantanal, even some limno; if there a big change what happens is the current growth stunts and new side stems form. What this is is the plant re-wiring itself for the new conditions. The current growth that stunted was "wired" for the previous parameters. The plant gives up on that and makes new growth that is "wired" for the new parameters. It doesnt mean the change is bad, its the plant adapting to something different. Dennis touches on this for people switching from rich to his lean method. Initially things may stunt while the plant adapts.

You can think of it similar to going from emersed to submerged growth. Those emersed leaves dont continue and simply change into nice submerged ones. They die off and new growth comes in. Same principal.

Youve had a lot of changes going recently. So you cant make these ultimate assumptions based on a plant's latest reaction. Ive given you the shotgun approach for the proven method that grows your plants well in sand. It may not work the first week or two. It may not work for the current existing growth, for reasons mentioned above. But it will work on future growth cycles 100%

Some of those plants are not going to do well in sand except under ideal circumstances. Primarily the Xyris and the Syns. At the very least there'll be a transition period. The best thing you can do esp in the beginning is lard on the macros. You havent been doing this. In fact some of these changes have come on top of macro deficiencies. That is still a main issue for you now I believe. Here's why I say this

All those stauros sucking. Thats almost certainly low macros, specifically and most likely low PO4. Now PO4 may not be low in the water right now, but it was/is low in their system already. And remember the existing growth on these sucky plants wont necessarily just get right. Often they'll get worse as the plant abandons that growth to make new growth

Another reason I think macros are still too low is pedicelata doing "ok". If its doing "OK" in inert sub, there's a 100% chance there's not enough macros in the water for many many other plants. And remember now that you have sand, the water is the only place they can get nutrients, and there has to be plenty

What I would do is trim off all the bad growth, stunted tops, all that. The plants are trying to make new adapted growth anyway. They are not trying to fix this growth, and getting it out of the way will expedite the whole process.

Then dose macros and micros just like I told you. That works for these plants in sand, trust me. Then be patient and dont change anything. Make sure to do excellent maintenance and cleaning. In two months whatever plants are going to survive these big transitions will be thriving. Whatever doesnt make it, wont. And its nothing to do with whether last weeks dosing was a good thing or not

 

[OmidNiav]

There are some broad generalizations in those conclusions such as "plant x likes lower micros" Ive mad the same mistakes more times than I can count, and it just doesnt work like that in the middle of several different changes

For one thing you'd have to be starting from a place where these plants were doing well already. A control if you will. Where say kochi was doing good, the only change you made (or made recently) was the micro adjustment. Then their reaction would have a certain value.

But even then, and pay attention right here; plants can balk at any sudden change. Finicky stems like rotalas, pantanal, even some limno; if there a big change what happens is the current growth stunts and new side stems form. What this is is the plant re-wiring itself for the new conditions. The current growth that stunted was "wired" for the previous parameters. The plant gives up on that and makes new growth that is "wired" for the new parameters. It doesnt mean the change is bad, its the plant adapting to something different. Dennis touches on this for people switching from rich to his lean method. Initially things may stunt while the plant adapts.

You can think of it similar to going from emersed to submerged growth. Those emersed leaves dont continue and simply change into nice submerged ones. They die off and new growth comes in. Same principal.

Youve had a lot of changes going recently. So you cant make these ultimate assumptions based on a plant's latest reaction. Ive given you the shotgun approach for the proven method that grows your plants well in sand. It may not work the first week or two. It may not work for the current existing growth, for reasons mentioned above. But it will work on future growth cycles 100%

Some of those plants are not going to do well in sand except under ideal circumstances. Primarily the Xyris and the Syns. At the very least there'll be a transition period. The best thing you can do esp in the beginning is lard on the macros. You havent been doing this. In fact some of these changes have come on top of macro deficiencies. That is still a main issue for you now I believe. Here's why I say this

All those stauros sucking. Thats almost certainly low macros, specifically and most likely low PO4. Now PO4 may not be low in the water right now, but it was/is low in their system already. And remember the existing growth on these sucky plants wont necessarily just get right. Often they'll get worse as the plant abandons that growth to make new growth

Another reason I think macros are still too low is pedicelata doing "ok". If its doing "OK" in inert sub, there's a 100% chance there's not enough macros in the water for many many other plants. And remember now that you have sand, the water is the only place they can get nutrients, and there has to be plenty

What I would do is trim off all the bad growth, stunted tops, all that. The plants are trying to make new adapted growth anyway. They are not trying to fix this growth, and getting it out of the way will expedite the whole process.

Then dose macros and micros just like I told you. That works for these plants in sand, trust me. Then be patient and dont change anything. Make sure to do excellent maintenance and cleaning. In two months whatever plants are going to survive these big transitions will be thriving. Whatever doesnt make it, wont. And its nothing to do with whether last weeks dosing was a good thing or not

Completely agree with you on giving things more time and that plants re-wiring themselves. My plan is to give everything more time, stay on top of maintenance, and observe. I want to figure out the effect of increasing micro levels when everything else would stay the same. While I take the word of all experts that microtox was BS, I want to figure out why a significant change in micro levels would make some species thrive and some stunt.

Do you have any staurogyne species in your tanks?

 

[Burr740]

C. While I take the word of all experts that microtox was BS, I want to figure out why a significant change in micro levels would make some species thrive and some stunt.

Oh its not BS! Not at all. You have to be very careful not to overdo it with Fe/micros. I only know of one "expert" who claims its bs. Anyone else claiming that...isnt one

But you also have to remember, at the time of the micro-tox wars, EI called for .5 fe 3x per week. I'd like for anyone growing todays plants to try that and see what happens lol

Also its no random event that EI was changed to .2 3x week shortly thereafter...regardless of what a certain expert likes to pretend

If you dose mine at the recommended amount, youre adding .15 ppm Fe 3x per week. That is in no way toxic or negative to anything

In your case, what you saw with the Kochi was most likely because you were already operating at deficient macro levels. So when you increased micros it amplified the shortage of macros. It wasnt the micros themselves. You couldve added more Ca/Mg or even co2 or light and probably saw the same thing

Current Stauro I have porto velho and purple. Grown a ton of spatulata and repens but dont have those now

 

[Mr.Shenanagins]

EI called for .5 fe 3x per week. I'd like for anyone growing todays plants to try that and see what happens lol

Also its no random event that EI was changed to .2 3x week shortly thereafter...regardless of what the expert in question likes to pretend

So with the chelated blends like plantex, .5 fe proxy at 3x per week was causing the toxicity correct?

Not to thread jack, but I what are some good indicators for low Fe/micros? I rarely go over .3-.4 per week with Fe as proxy, I dose GLA’s DTPA/EDTA micro blend.

 

[Burr740]

So with the chelated blends like plantex, .5 fe proxy at 3x per week was causing the toxicity correct?

Really it was the hobby reluctantly realizing two things at once; csm-b is a shitty product for our aquariums, worse if your ph is 7+, and also that the standard EI dose of .5 ppm Fe 3x is way too much

When the .5 3x dose was established there were maybe 100 different plants in the hobby. By this time there were 300 plants, a lot of which werent gonna tolerate such a high dose (now there's idk, 500+ if you count Buces as one) The ones still having success with csmb just happened to have soft water with a low PH. Even a lot of them had issues with csmb at that level, but not all

Thats why there was such a resistence to the idea. Because hey if it works for this guy then the problem has to be something else. Fun fact Tom wasnt even dosing .5 3x by then in his 180 that was so famous. He was dosing .2 "a couple times" between bi-weekly 80% water changes. For the life of me I never understood why he put up such a resistance to the idea that .5 was too much, but thats a different story

On the flip side of this there were a handful of people who became very vocal that everything was a toxicity. Thats where the "war" began. Most sensible folks were caught in the middle, clearly seeing yeah thats way too much micros but nah its crazy to ascribe everything else to toxicity

Anyway there's the history lesson. Back to the now, .5 3x would be way too much even with my blend - for a lot of plants, not all. Dosing .2 3x would be favorable for most everything, but unnecessary and a few things may not like it

Not to thread jack, but I what are some good indicators for low Fe/micros? I rarely go over .3-.4 per week with Fe as proxy, I dose GLA’s DTPA/EDTA micro blend.

Pale and/or stunted new growth, very similar to the symptoms of too much. A decent general rule for colorful plants is stunting with poor color = not enough. Stunting with good or abnormally deep color = too much. There are exceptions to that, but generally speaking its a fairly reliable guideline

With greens not enough usually just equals pale, small new growth. Too much tends to cause faux K deficiency symptoms down low, Hygrophila especially, any big leafy greens. The tops of greens may or may not stunt with too much. Fine leaf stuff like Pogo deccanensis (erectus) certainly will