Help Help identifying deficiencies

[scotrock]

I'm working on a journal for this setup but am wanting to get some feedback on my starting point/s in the meantime. This tank was previously run as a high energy setup with the majority of hardscape, substrate and , plants from that previous setup..

I stripped down that tank and gravel vacuumed the nearly 5 year old OG Amazonia substrate to be used as a base layer, placed several root tabs throughout and capped with UNS Controsoil.

Light is Chihiros WRGB2 set at R23 G19 B43. Photoperiod is 6hrs. Aiming for 45 to 50 par at substrate.

Fert schedule is based PPS Pro method (lean dosing) using GLA ferts. Dosing 1 ml Macro daily (per ml: NO3 0.25 ppm, PO4 0.025 ppm, K 0.164 ppm, Mg 0.051 ppm based on 160L) and 1 ml Micro daily (per ml: Fe 0.25 ppm).

My initial goal is to keep this tank low energy (no CO2). I have everything CO2 from previous setup but I would prefer not to use it in order to keep the maintenance on the lower end. It's a lot to ask and above my level of expertise to know precisely what to do to keep a low energy tank slowly growing with no/minimal algae.

Most of what I've come up so far is was "figured out" with the assistance of chatgpt. I've picked up on Reddit that the more knowledgeable aquarists frown heavily on using LLM's. I don't have that much experience with them but I've found it/them useful in establishing a starting point.

The tank move and rescape was spread out over three weeks. After doing an algae dip on all the plants, they were kept in my 45U with medium lighting and a basic fert applied weekly. This tank has been set up for almost 3 weeks. There are obvious deficiencies that I need help identifying. I also don't know if the deficiencies are from this new setup or residual from the previous setups and 3 week staging in 45U.

I really appreciate any input.

 

[BenB]

I'm not knowledgeable much on this type tank, but I thought I'd offer to places to look.

First, if you are a member of the AGA, Sudipta Shaw did an amazing talk on high light non-CO2 tanks as the 2024 Convention.
The videos can be found on the AGA page in the Archives section.

Also, I've watched videos in the past by THIS guy. He does a lot of non-CO2 tanks that look great. Sorry I can't point you to a specific video. It's been awhile.

 

[scotrock]

I'm not knowledgeable much on this type tank, but I thought I'd offer to places to look.

First, if you are a member of the AGA, Sudipta Shaw did an amazing talk on high light non-CO2 tanks as the 2024 Convention.
The videos can be found on the AGA page in the Archives section.

Also, I've watched videos in the past by THIS guy. He does a lot of non-CO2 tanks that look great. Sorry I can't point you to a specific video. It's been awhile.

Thanks, Sudipta Shaw looks like great resource.

 

[BenB]

Thanks, Sudipta Shaw looks like great resource.

He has a journal here, but I don't think he participates much anymore.

S

Journal Thread 'sudiorca's non-CO2 supplemented softwater tanks'

Dec 17, 2022

Thank you @GreggZ for the invite.
I have been maintaining several non-CO2 supplemented softwater tanks for some time and one of them was setup little over 3.5 years ago. Although I do have a pressurized CO2 injected high-tech tank, I love growing several problematic stem palnts including many members of Lythraceae family in my non-CO2 supplemented tanks.
Below are some old pictures of my tanks along with some closeup shots of some of my favorite plants.
My tanks are currently recovering from sevearl weeks of negligence due to my absence and I will post more pictures as they...

• sudiorca
• high light non-co2 softwater zero dkh
• Replies: 79
• Forum: Journals

• 
• 

 

[BigWave]

1st thing I see is if your dosing strictly using the PPS Pro method your numbers are off. Especially Fe (traces). Here is their official link discribing it. To paraphrase: Then we start dosing daily PPS-Pro solution #1 (Macros) at 1 ml per 10 gallon or 40 L and PPS-Pro #2 (Trace elements) at 0.5 ml per 10 gallon or 40 L. (Daily dose of 1 ppm NO3, 0.1 ppm PO4, 1.33 ppm K, 0.1 ppm Mg, 0.05 ppm Fe(TE)) Perpetual Preservation System - Chemicals & Dosing

Compared to APT Complete numbers from the online Rotala Butterfly Calculator.
To reach your target of 7.5ppm NO3 you will need to add 10.100 milliliter (equivalent to 2 tsp + 1/32 tsp + 1/64 tsp ) APT COMPLETE to your 40L aquarium to yield:

NO3	7.500
N	1.693
P	1.289
K	16.930
Fe	0.238
Mg	2.931
Cu	0.001
B	0.038
Zn	0.018
Mn	0.038
Mo	0

[th]

Element​

[/th][th]

ppm/degree​

[/th]​

Otherwise plants dont look to bad for a brand new setup. They are a bit discolored.

 

[Burr740]

Honestly I wouldnt even bother trying to nail ppsp with a non co2 tank. Daily dosing is way too much trouble and the plants arent even using it that fast. Plus, and this is the big thing, your plants would likely benefit from having a higher concentration at one time, because the higher concentration makes it easier for plants to get the sm amounts they need

30% weekly water changes. Right after add 2-3 ppm NO3, .5-.7 ppm PO4, 4-5 ppm K, micros at .05-.07 ppm Fe. Thatll probably do for the whole week, or you can do another dose mid week

Sudipta's routine is the holy grail for non-co2 tanks for sure. But your plants <so far> are a whole lot easier than what he grows, so it probably isnt necessary, just fyi

 

[scotrock]

1st thing I see is if your dosing strictly using the PPS Pro method your numbers are off. Especially Fe (traces). Here is their official link discribing it. To paraphrase: Then we start dosing daily PPS-Pro solution #1 (Macros) at 1 ml per 10 gallon or 40 L and PPS-Pro #2 (Trace elements) at 0.5 ml per 10 gallon or 40 L. (Daily dose of 1 ppm NO3, 0.1 ppm PO4, 1.33 ppm K, 0.1 ppm Mg, 0.05 ppm Fe(TE)) Perpetual Preservation System - Chemicals & Dosing

Compared to APT Complete numbers from the online Rotala Butterfly Calculator.
To reach your target of 7.5ppm NO3 you will need to add 10.100 milliliter (equivalent to 2 tsp + 1/32 tsp + 1/64 tsp ) APT COMPLETE to your 40L aquarium to yield:

NO3	7.500
N	1.693
P	1.289
K	16.930
Fe	0.238
Mg	2.931
Cu	0.001
B	0.038
Zn	0.018
Mn	0.038
Mo	0

[th]
Element

[/th][th]
ppm/degree

[/th]​

Otherwise plants dont look to bad for a brand new setup. They are a bit discolored.

Those quantities are closer to what I ran when I was using CO2.

Honestly I wouldnt even bother trying to nail ppsp with a non co2 tank. Daily dosing is way too much trouble and the plants arent even using it that fast. Plus, and this is the big thing, your plants would likely benefit from having a higher concentration at one time, because the higher concentration makes it easier for plants to get the sm amounts they need

30% weekly water changes. Right after add 2-3 ppm NO3, .5-.7 ppm PO4, 4-5 ppm K, micros at .05-.07 ppm Fe. Thatll probably do for the whole week, or you can do another dose mid week

Sudipta's routine is the holy grail for non-co2 tanks for sure. But your plants <so far> are a whole lot easier than what he grows, so it probably isnt necessary, just fyi

I had difficulty growing some of the plants he had even when I was running CO2.

I have an auto doser so daily dosing isn't an issue but if there's a better method/timing of delivery, I'm very open to switching.

Thank you!

 

[scotrock]

30% weekly water changes. Right after add 2-3 ppm NO3, .5-.7 ppm PO4, 4-5 ppm K, micros at .05-.07 ppm Fe. Thatll probably do for the whole week, or you can do another dose mid week

Do you see any issue with me figuring out how to reach the levels you recommend using the GLA ferts I have on hand? KNO3 vs No3 etc? Or should I utilize a different fertilizer source?

Is using dry salts the preferred method or could I premix so I can use my auto-doser? If acceptable to premix, am I ok to mix all my macros or should I split them up?

 

[Burr740]

@scotrock KNO3 is fine. Its what we all use. Just keep in mind it also adds some K. Roughly 3 ppm K for every 5 ppm NO3. So count that too when making your calculations

And yes you can put all your macros in the same mix, something else most everyone does. You might need a preservative to prevent mold. A mild acid like vinegar might work, or excel/glut. Personally I need a stronger preservative to keep the mold away, potassium sorbate at .2 gm per 500 ml is the ultimate way to go

Your micros dont need a strong mold blocker but they do need the ph adjusted low. Use ascorbic acid at .5 gm per 500 ml for micros

 

[BigWave]

Quite alot of us that have been around for a while mix up our own fertilizers using the salts you have. The biggest thing is finding a routine and sticking to it. Consistency is the key.

 

[Koan]

He has a journal here, but I don't think he participates much anymore.

@sudiorca is still around

 

[scotrock]

Not asking anyone to do any math....

Is there anything that looks wildly off with this or that I need to double-check?

• Aquarium volume: 160 L
• Weekly dose: 10 mL from each 500 mL bottle (50 doses per bottle)
• Micro bottle was sized to deliver 0.05 ppm Fe per 10 mL dose.

---

500 mL MACRO Bottle (KNO₃ + KH₂PO₄ + K₂SO₄ + preservative)​

Dry ingredients to add:

• KNO₃: 26.09 g
• KH₂PO₄: 5.73 g
• K₂SO₄: 45.10 g
• Potassium sorbate: 0.20 g

Final volume: Fill to 500 mL with distilled water.
Weekly dose: 10 mL
Resulting nutrient delivery per 10 mL dose (into 160 L):

• NO₃: ~2.00 ppm
• PO₄: ~0.50 ppm
• K: ~4.00 ppm (≈1.47 ppm from KNO₃/KH₂PO₄ + 2.53 ppm from K₂SO₄)
• SO₄: ~3.11 ppm (from K₂SO₄)

Mixing notes: add solids to ~300–350 mL distilled water, dissolve (warm slightly if needed), top to 500 mL, label, store cool/dark, shake before dosing.

---

500 mL MICRO Bottle (GLA Micromix 7% Fe + ascorbic acid)​

Dry ingredients to add:

• GLA Micromix (7% Fe): 5.714 g
• Ascorbic acid: 0.50 g

Final volume: Fill to 500 mL with distilled water.
Weekly dose: 10 mL
How this was sized:

• One 10 mL dose = 114.2857 mg of the GLA product (5.714 g / 50 doses).
• That delivers 8.00 mg Fe per dose → 0.05 ppm Fe in 160 L.

Resulting elemental delivery per 10 mL dose (into 160 L) — from the GLA micromix:

Element	% in product	mass per 10 mL dose	ppm in 160 L
Iron (Fe) — DTPA	7.00%	8.000 mg	0.0500 ppm
Magnesium (Mg)	1.50%	1.714 mg	0.0107 ppm
Manganese (Mn) — EDTA	2.00%	2.286 mg	0.0143 ppm
Boron (B)	0.70%	0.800 mg	0.00500 ppm
Zinc (Zn) — EDTA	0.35%	0.400 mg	0.00250 ppm
Molybdenum (Mo)	0.0018%	0.00206 mg	0.0000129 ppm
Copper (Cu) — EDTA	<0.0175%	<0.020 mg	<0.000125 ppm

Mixing notes:

1. Add ~300–350 mL distilled water.
2. Add 0.50 g ascorbic acid first and dissolve.
3. Add 5.714 g GLA Micromix, dissolve completely (shake).
4. Top to 500 mL. Label: contents, date, dose = 10 mL weekly → 160 L. Store cool/dark and shake before dosing.

 

[ElleDee]

What obvious deficiencies are you referring to? In a low energy tank, if you are dosing a nutrient you probably aren't deficient in it, but doing an algae dip and moving your plants between tanks can certainly do a number on them. Iron may be the one exception depending on the chelate/ph, but I find deficiencies to be over diagnosed.

I don't think micromanaging fertilizer on a low tech tank is a good use of time. There are too many variables, poor testing equipment, and demand is so low fussing with it is unlikely to result in much. Aim for something reasonable, then keep things as consistent as possible and give the plants time to adapt. I realize "reasonable" is very subjective, but I think there's a pretty wide window of what can work.

FWIW Sudipta's tanks are much higher energy than you are going for. That's not to say they wouldn't work, but 50 par at the substrate is pretty normal and there's no need to do anything fancy. IIRC his are 100-125. If you want to garden on east mode, keep your lights low and pick plants that don't mind. I have a tank like this and it's great - low stress and I finally get to enjoy some white sand.

 

[scotrock]

What obvious deficiencies are you referring to? In a low energy tank, if you are dosing a nutrient you probably aren't deficient in it, but doing an algae dip and moving your plants between tanks can certainly do a number on them. Iron may be the one exception depending on the chelate/ph, but I find deficiencies to be over diagnosed.

I don't think micromanaging fertilizer on a low tech tank is a good use of time. There are too many variables, poor testing equipment, and demand is so low fussing with it is unlikely to result in much. Aim for something reasonable, then keep things as consistent as possible and give the plants time to adapt. I realize "reasonable" is very subjective, but I think there's a pretty wide window of what can work.

FWIW Sudipta's tanks are much higher energy than you are going for. That's not to say they wouldn't work, but 50 par at the substrate is pretty normal and there's no need to do anything fancy. IIRC his are 100-125. If you want to garden on east mode, keep your lights low and pick plants that don't mind. I have a tank like this and it's great - low stress and I finally get to enjoy some white sand.

Thank you for the input. Initially, I was referring to the Wavy Green Buce, but there may be some other deficiencies that I'm not seeing. Yes, I need to wait to see how the plants react to the new setup. Half of the plants came from a 5-year-old high-energy tank that I shut off the CO2 to 5'ish months ago. That tank had lost its balance, and BBA had run amok. The other plants (including the wavy green) came from a smaller, low-tech tank that had some algae issues, but not as bad.

This is my only tank now. I have the time and equipment to dial in the setup so I can leave it alone; I just needed a starting point. I may run CO2 on it again someday, or I may use the CO2 if on my 45U if I feel like setting that up down the road.

I have zero desire to grow the plants that Sudipta does. I'm just looking for a low-maintenance tank (compared to a high-energy all-stems setup) that I can fiddle with every once in a while, with healthy plants, livestock, and balance. I never dug in very deep on a fertilizer regimen when I was running high-energy outside of what I had initially set up. Yes, that was part of my problem. Yes, I may be overcompensating for it now.

 

[ElleDee]

@scotrock I feel you. Going low energy definitely takes a change of mindset, or at least that's the impression I get after a few years of hanging around the high tech crowd. It's less important to be right on the money with every aspect of the tank, but everything takes forever. It's a lot of waiting to see the fruits of your labor, but if your system is set up right it should just get better and even easier (stable) with time.

 

[Pepere]

Daily dosing is way too much trouble and the plants arent even using it that fast. Plus, and this is the big thing, your plants would likely benefit from having a higher concentration at one time, because the higher concentration makes it easier for plants to get the sm amounts they need

Personally I find daily dosing much easier. Everybday, I feed the fish and feed the plants. It is just default…

Trying to remember what days to add ferts is more of a hassle for me…

But i get the higher concentration on certain days for a tank without co2…

 

[sudiorca]

I have been growing plants in non-CO2 supplemented tanks for more than 6 years. I have mentioned in my journal and at AGA convention about several key factors affecting the outcome of these setups in long periods of time (several years) including;
Quality of substrates
water parameters
Light
Flow and filtration
Importance of healthy root systems
Maintenance
Fertilization
Temperature.

Among all of the above factors, I have found that fertilization is the LEAST important factor in these setups. I can grow beautiful and vibrant plants in these setups for years without paying too much attention to the feralization regime as long as I am adding small amounts of macro and micro on a regular basis and occasionally adding ammonia rich root tabs. However, I can't say the same for the rest of the factors mentioned above, they play far important role in these type of setups in the long run IME.
People should focus more on the other factors if they really want to grow healthy plants in these type of setups.

 

[scotrock]

@sudiorca thank you very much for the reply. I will take to heart your advice and work towards achieving and maintain something that resembles your outcomes.

 

[BenB]

occasionally adding ammonia rich root tabs.

Which ammonia rich root tabs do you use?