Using Miracle-Gro as fertiliser

[Pepere]

So everyone on here that posts regularly is probably a master per this point system. That said I actually love it as a fun game and community tracker for a club. I hate that it is being used for marketing like a real degree.

Oh my goodness. You need 400 points to be a master Aquatic Horticulturist.


And,,, growing duckweed and getting it to double twice earns you 10 points!

If you donate some to a club auction you get 25 points. You can get another 25 points by donating a second bag…

So that is 60 points total… For Duckweed…

By golly, you ought to get a couple hundred pounts for eliminating it from a tank….

But geesh, to get 15% of the way to “Master Aquatic Horticulturalist” for getting a hitchiker plant of duckweed double in size twice in your tank, and then grow enough and make 2 donations seriously diminishes the importance of in my mind.

 

[Wet Elbows]

Well...
I just outed Corey on his Horticulturist award on his own forum. I'm done being censored.

 

[ElleDee]

Sigh I feel like I need to make a sign so can tap it: Not everyone in the hobby is going for the same kind of tank.

There are lots and lots of people who keep fish-focused tanks who are interested in plants, but not willing to go all out for them, especially at first. That is the Aquarium Coop market and they are very straight forward about that. There's no trickery involved. That is not the Scape Crunch crowd. It doesn't have to be a whole thing.

It is good, actually, to have lots of approaches kicking around, even if some are not perfectly optimized.

 

[Koan]

even if some are not perfectly optimized

Okay to be fair, "Master Horticulturalist" does indicate a pursuit of optimization.

Even if this Master of Duckweed award could be taken as tongue-in-cheek

 

[Scaper26]

Sigh I feel like I need to make a sign so can tap it: Not everyone in the hobby is going for the same kind of tank.

There are lots and lots of people who keep fish-focused tanks who are interested in plants, but not willing to go all out for them, especially at first. That is the Aquarium Coop market and they are very straight forward about that. There's no trickery involved. That is not the Scape Crunch crowd. It doesn't have to be a whole thing.

It is good, actually, to have lots of approaches kicking around, even if some are not perfectly optimized.I

I do agree with you that they are in a different part of the hobby (fish-keeping focused), which is totally fair. My pickle with them is in them claiming to be some kind of authority by flaunting their "master aquatic horticulturist" title while perpetuating incorrect and long-debunked theories such as:
1. Blue light causes algae.
2. "pH drop from CO₂ can harm livestock", while avoiding all context or nuance to that statement
3. Low KH is dangerous
What these statements do is confuse beginners and even long-standing fishkeepers, eventually complicating fish and plant keeping. Science is really quite clear if you're willing to look at the evidence.

 

[Koan]

So that is 60 points total… For Duckweed…

 

[Wet Elbows]

Sigh I feel like I need to make a sign so can tap it: Not everyone in the hobby is going for the same kind of tank

I agree. There is no right or wrong focus. Personally I'm not interested in a Dutch style tank. They're beautiful, I admire the people that have the dedication to do that, it's just not the vibe I'm going for.

There are lots and lots of people who keep fish-focused tanks who are interested in plants, but not willing to go all out for them, especially at first. That is the Aquarium Coop market and they are very straight forward about that. There's no trickery involved

If there is no trickery involved why hide behind a pseudo academic title?
Aquarium Coop has a very specific demographic/target base. Newbs. People who have been involved in the hobby less than a year and they just don't know any better. Corey isn't stupid, he's got a smart plan. He uses his forum as a marketing tool. Gain their trust in the forum and YouTube videos and convert them into customers.
What he doesn’t allow is advanced information or topics that may require some critical thinking skills.

I quit their forum last night and told Corey where he can stick his forum, sideways.
In two consecutive days I had two threads shut down by him.
One was the story of the Argentinian judge that recently ruled two goldfish as sentient beings and ordered them removed to a better habitat. I think we can all see the implications of that.
The second was a thread complete with linked peer reviewed paper about chronic exposure to low level ammonia on carps.
Both shut down because everything is positive and kittens and rainbows there. They are too scared to tackle big boy topics.

So for me, you couple the deception of Master Aquatic Horticulturist, cheap knock off products from China, and censorship of pertinent topics and I'm done. I have zero use for him or ACO.

 

[SingAlongWithTsing]

tom is the only one I've heard of using miracle gro all purpose plant food, screen shot was from about a year ago though.

I dont remember what fish or inverts he kept in that 70 gal

 

[ElleDee]

Okay to be fair, "Master Horticulturalist" does indicate a pursuit of optimization.

Even if this Master of Duckweed award could be taken as tongue-in-cheek

I do understand your point - I myself am Expert Aquatic Horticulturalist in my local club (though in our system you can only get 5 points for duckweed and the other requirements are somewhat more rigorous). It's a fun game to encourage club participation and plant swapping.

But also think think that the Aquarium Coop approach is actually pretty fine tuned for American beginners, who are trying to get up and running with as little fuss as possible, for not too much money. Of course there are trade offs, and it's not perfect even within that specific context, but who else is doing it better? The situation is much different for the higher end and international audience (I put Dennis in this category), where I don't think Aquarium Coop would find favorable footing. So, basically he's King of Duckweed.

I do agree with you that they are in a different part of the hobby (fish-keeping focused), which is totally fair. My pickle with them is in them claiming to be some kind of authority by flaunting their "master aquatic horticulturist" title while perpetuating incorrect and long-debunked theories such as:
1. Blue light causes algae.
2. "pH drop from CO₂ can harm livestock", while avoiding all context or nuance to that statement
3. Low KH is dangerous
What these statements do is confuse beginners and even long-standing fishkeepers, eventually complicating fish and plant keeping. Science is really quite clear if you're willing to look at the evidence.

I agree, but the first two are largely irrelevant in the sort of tanks Aquarium Coop promotes - the lights are not customizable and they aren't injecting CO2 anyway. The third point I have personally been victimized by as a beginner and bought crushed coral because I thought I needed it. It's one of my all-time stupid aquarium purchases, but luckily it was a cheap mistake. That said, low KH can be dangerous if you aren't taking care of your tank, especially if you don't have many plants and do have a lot of fish. I'm not worried about the average member here, but the Aquarium Coop demographic probably should have more buffer. Also I wonder how much of this is an artifact of Cory being really into livebearers that need more hardness to survive? He has very little incentive to test out that rule himself when his livestock can't take it.

@Wet Elbows - I've migrated from two separate planted tank forums because I wasn't feeling how stuff was being handled. It sucks and it's not fun.

tom is the only one I've heard of using miracle gro all purpose plant food, screen shot was from about a year ago though.

I dont remember what fish or inverts he kept in that 70 gal

IIRC Darryl at UKAPS describes his fertilization regimen as adding a slosh of diluted miracle gro occasionally. Obviously that's not specific enough to emulate, but there's one more person.

 

[Scaper26]

That said, low KH can be dangerous if you aren't taking care of your tank, especially if you don't have many plants and do have a lot of fish

This is the sort of information I've been trying to point out, which they perpetuate, but it really has no basis. KH levels determine osmoregulation in fish, and if your KH is 0, there can't possibly be a "KH crash" that harms your fish. Another thing that is often presented is that low KH will crash your cycle or your nitrogen cycle won't establish at all; this is also incorrect. The type of microbiology that dominates a low KH tank is very different from what is found in higher KH tanks. This is what I mean by the "master horticulturists" giving out info that is lacking depth, consensus, and science. Not only is low KH safe, as is proven through the example of many aquarists throughout the world who persistently keep tanks at a KH of 0 for years on end, but it should be how many softwater fish species should be kept, which many said masters seem to conveniently ignore (cardinals and neon tetras being decent examples).
You have pointed out something crucial, which is that caring for your tank is key. If one does not change water consistently to remove VOCs, detritus, and waste, the tank will eventually become less and less hospitable to life. This will happen despite your KH being 0 or 10, and in that case, no amount of buffering capacity will prevent fish disease and general ecological decline in the tank.

 

[Pepere]

There is a point to being the entry level for beginners.

We all were beginners one time..

And Cory has mentioned that the high end aquascaping portion of the hobby only accounts for a tiny portion of the hobby.. and in fact the portion of aquarium owners who watch videos on aquarium keeping and frequent forums is also pretty small…

Brings to mind an old episode on the Jack Benny show where Jack was talking to a young boy with a Violin in his hands. Jack asked “ Oh. Do you play violin like I do?”

The boy replied, “Well, I used to.”

Corey helped me understand certain things when I started…

I think I have progressed since then. We have very different ideas of plant husbandry now… (The little voice in my mind just whispered”And it shows too!” But, I dont think I would say that out loud.). But typing is different, right?

I do worry about people becoming frustrated with algae when they are “doing everything right”…. I have been able to interact with maybe a dozen people that I know of who followed advice I have offered and reported back that they have finally been able to get the upper hand on algae…

I often see queries for suggestions for algae consuming livestock, and I always reply that the best cure for algae I know is to grow vibrant thriving plants that defend themselves very well against algae growth…

Otherwise you have suffering plants that have had the algae eaten off them.

 

[Calamardo Tentaculos]

@SingAlongWithTsing @ElleDee now that is what I want to know. How do they get by with MiracleGro? What is the science behind it? Can't we just use one fertiliser for all our plants, aquatic and terrestial alike?

Another thought I have is that, @Dennis Wong mention the benefits of ammonical nitrogen via fresh aquasoil. Would it not stand to reason that an ammonia based fertiliser would have a similar positive impact on plants in the aquarium?

 

[JayP]

@SingAlongWithTsing @ElleDee now that is what I want to know. How do they get by with MiracleGro? What is the science behind it? Can't we just use one fertiliser for all our plants, aquatic and terrestial alike?

Another thought I have is that, @Dennis Wong mention the benefits of ammonical nitrogen via fresh aquasoil. Would it not stand to reason that an ammonia based fertiliser would have a similar positive impact on plants in the aquarium?

The irony is: even Miracle-Gro doesn't just sell one all-in-one plant food. They sell about 30 different plant foods marketed to people to target different vegetables, flowers, bushes, etc. and the only reason it's so much cheaper than aquarium fertilizer, is that the terrestrial plant food market is magnitudes larger than the aquarium plant food market. From my personal perspective, even if there weren't questionable ingredients in miracle-gro that could cause harm to my livestock, I just can't see much value in the small percentage of savings using it as opposed to fertilizers I've seen positive evidence of the performance, when I've spent thousands on all the other equipment, fish and plants.

 

[Naturescapes_Rocco]

@SingAlongWithTsing @ElleDee now that is what I want to know. How do they get by with MiracleGro? What is the science behind it? Can't we just use one fertiliser for all our plants, aquatic and terrestial alike?

Another thought I have is that, @Dennis Wong mention the benefits of ammonical nitrogen via fresh aquasoil. Would it not stand to reason that an ammonia based fertiliser would have a similar positive impact on plants in the aquarium?

The "one size fits all" trope unfortunately never applies to anything that's alive, whether that's plants, fungi, animals or anything in between! We all wish it were that easy!

Ammonia-based nitrogen has been talked about a lot for many decades, and while plants DO prefer it to some extent, the downsides simply are too many in most cases for the aquarium hobby. There's a reason that 99% of commercial aquarium ferts DON'T use urea-based fertilizers.

 

[Dennis Wong]

everytime I see corey from co-op



then his clientele replies:

 

[Calamardo Tentaculos]

The "one size fits all" trope unfortunately never applies to anything that's alive, whether that's plants, fungi, animals or anything in between! We all wish it were that easy!

Ammonia-based nitrogen has been talked about a lot for many decades, and while plants DO prefer it to some extent, the downsides simply are too many in most cases for the aquarium hobby. There's a reason that 99% of commercial aquarium ferts DON'T use urea-based fertilizers.

thanks for the explanation.

So, what would be the source of the N in our hobby fertilisers? Because, I recalled on the UKAPS forum it was discussed that Tropica ferts use Ammonia-baded nitrogen.

 

[Koan]

on the UKAPS forum it was discussed

I believe access to KNO3 is limited in UK as well as other European countries

 

[SmartAlec13]

Just to add to the duckweed-points, if that is the sort of thing being accepted as advanced horticulturist evidence, then I am sure my various awards here on Scapecrunch are worth some points lol.

I think it is good to have people who cater to entry level aquarists. I've only been in this game 2 years, so I am pretty new myself. But the problem is misinformation and rejection of intellectualism, the latter is definitely part of the reason why so many (at least in USA) gravitate towards that style of tank. Obviously people have different goals, and I don't blame anyone for not wanting to devote even more time, money and energy on their tank. But I do think that a lot of the voices who aim for lower-maintenance tanks do end up spreading misinformation because they don't engage with the scientific / high tech side of the hobby.

I know when I was first seeking info, I was going low-tech, and as my budget changed and I was able to go high-tech, I found that a lot of the information I learned while seeking high tech contradicted some of the info I learned going low-tech. Not just because they are different goals, but the philosophies themselves were different.

 

[Scaper26]

thanks for the explanation.

So, what would be the source of the N in our hobby fertilisers? Because, I recalled on the UKAPS forum it was discussed that Tropica ferts use Ammonia-baded nitrogen.

Honestly, it's ok to use ammonium sulfate or even urea if your tank is established. I will dry-dose ammonium sulfate sometimes if I need to give my plants some extra boost. I don't go crazy with it, though. Just 1 to 2 ppm is good enough. If you dose it just before the photoperiod and your plants are healthy, they do soak it up pretty quick. Ammoniacal nitrogen isn't generally used in commercial products due to the fear fishkeepers have of ammonia poisoning, which isn't an issue if your tank is running at a low pH. Seachem nitrogen is a great product, btw. I used to use that before I started dosing ammonium sulfate.

 

[Naturescapes_Rocco]

Also, if you were trying to reach the levels of NO3 that I want in my tanks (20-30ppm), you'd be easily dosing lethal amounts of ammonium sulfate, too.