Journal Greggz 120G Rainbow Fish Tank - Part Deux!

[GreggZ]

I'm quite amazed at your ability to keep that soil so clean. I was really struggling with mine which eventually tipped it over the cliff and it simply could not be saved.

Over time I am more and more convinced that substrate health and cleanliness plays a greater role than most suspect.

When I remove a patch of plants for trimming I take that opportunity to give that area a good vacuum. And every so often I remove every plant and do a whole tank thorough vac.

Interestingly I find a direct correlation between substrate cleanliness and TDS . If I see TDS rising a good substrate vac brings in right down. And in my tank the lower the TDS the easier things are.

If the substrate is dirty you can try all the fert levels in the world and it won't fix it. What usually works better is some good old fashioned elbow grease.

 

[klibs]

Yep I do the same thing. When I notice dirty substrate I know I am in need of a good clean. Algae usually follows closely behind...
One problem I have been having is letting my tank get too dense. It looks good, sure, but it is far harder to clean between all those plants and you get a lot of leaf decay on the lower leaves when they get no light, flow, etc

 

[GreggZ]

Yep I do the same thing. When I notice dirty substrate I know I am in need of a good clean. Algae usually follows closely behind...
One problem I have been having is letting my tank get too dense. It looks good, sure, but it is far harder to clean between all those plants and you get a lot of leaf decay on the lower leaves when they get no light, flow, etc

Yep agreed.

I have found that my plants always do best with a little elbow room between the species. When it gets to be too much of jungle plants suffer. Plant mass management is also an active part of the hobby.

 

[Freshflora]

@GreggZ I swear you’ve detailed this to me already, but I can’t find the info for the life of me, so apologies for making you repeat info. I believe that you’ve said to me that when you do the thorough substrate cleaning and remove all the plants out of the tank, you use tap water for repeated water changes until the substrate is clean. Don’t you have high KH? Switching between your tap water and RO water doesn’t cause any issues for your fish while you’re doing the cleaning, or how do you manage this?

 

[GreggZ]

@GreggZ I swear you’ve detailed this to me already, but I can’t find the info for the life of me, so apologies for making you repeat info. I believe that you’ve said to me that when you do the thorough substrate cleaning and remove all the plants out of the tank, you use tap water for repeated water changes until the substrate is clean. Don’t you have high KH? Switching between your tap water and RO water doesn’t cause any issues for your fish while you’re doing the cleaning, or how do you manage this?

You have a good memory. I have two levels of "deep" substrate cleaning.

One method is to remove the plants and perform a deep gravel vac. I do that about every four months or so. That is in addition to regular vacuuming when I pull large groups to trim.

Every few years I do an even deeper clean. I remove all the fish and plants from the tank. Then I run a tap water hose to the tank while I am running the vac at the same time. I basically keep stirring up the substrate and keep the flow on the incoming water to match the outflow. This can go on for hours. You have no idea how much gunk is in there until you actually see it.

When I'm done I drain the tank as far down as possible and refill with RO water. There is a small amount of higher dKH water in the tank, but I just watch my livestock and adjust the CO2 accordingly for a few days. It is such a small percentage of the higher dKH water that the substrate absorbs that pretty quickly and the dKH is back to normal.

This is a BIG project. But I have found after doing so everything about the tank is easier for quite a long time.

I hope that helps.

 

[JPog]

This is a BIG project. But I have found after doing so everything about the tank is easier for quite a long time.

I hope that helps.

This sounds like a good hedge against what many might call "old tank syndrome", where problems are just hard to get rid of issues occur with both plants and algae, more likely due to a buildup of waste in the substrate. I must admit I don't currently do this, but even in my tanks with just shrimp, it is amazing how much waste accumulates down there.

 

[GreggZ]

sounds like a good hedge against what many might call "old tank syndrome", where problems are just hard to get rid of issues occur with both plants and algae, more likely due to a buildup of waste in the substrate.

Exactly. It likes a complete reset of the tank. After years of build up folks have no idea how much gunk is in there.

 

[Immortal1]

Exactly. It likes a complete reset of the tank. After years of build up folks have no idea how much gunk is in there.

... I do !!! LOL

 

[Unexpected]

I've chosen to permanently front load Macros but I'm wondering something. Let's say my tank consumes only, no fish generated nutrients. And I observe my plants seem to be happiest at (made up numbers) 20/10/20. I only want to change water once a week so I need to front load a target that exceeds 20/10/20 and matches the rate of consumption. Correct? So let's say my tank consumes 5ppm of each every week, my target should be 25/15/25? Or will a dip below my tanks optimal not be a problem?

Thank you for any insight.

 

[Burr740]

I doubt you get a measurable amount of consumption uness you have a more sophisticated instrument than drop tests. Even if you do it wont be a static number. The rate of consumption will always be changing relative to the plant mass in the tank. Just dose to a target and forget about plant uptake

 

[Art]

In my experience, @Burr740's advice is absolutely right. I stressed over calculating my tank's "optimal" consumption and trying to meet that. I just drove myself crazy chasing a number that is variable (and not able to be measured given my hobby grade test kits) and really not that important. Make sure there's enough nutrients and the plants will take what they need.

 

[GreggZ]

I've chosen to permanently front load Macros but I'm wondering something. Let's say my tank consumes only, no fish generated nutrients. And I observe my plants seem to be happiest at (made up numbers) 20/10/20. I only want to change water once a week so I need to front load a target that exceeds 20/10/20 and matches the rate of consumption. Correct? So let's say my tank consumes 5ppm of each every week, my target should be 25/15/25? Or will a dip below my tanks optimal not be a problem?

Thank you for any insight.

Like Burr and Art said, if you have enough within reason you don't need to get too exact.

That being said some people might do better dosing maybe 1/2 up front then the two more 1/4 doses throughout the week. But that would be a really heavily planted tank, with no fish load, and excellent maintenance. This would be similar to what Marien Sterien does.

In my case my tank generated nutrients pretty much matches the plant uptake. My tank tests almost exactly the same any day of the week, and my TDS is pretty much the same right before and right after a water change. So very stable. And plants like that.

 

[Unexpected]

Afternoon GreggZ!

Rainbow question for you. It's a bit difficult to see from your photos, but do you keep groups of each type of rainbows or do you keep just a few individuals? If you keep a group, do you find a specific total is best or not matter?

I think I've decided to go the rainbow route, but my local fish stores usually only have a few at a time. I'm always afraid to pull the trigger as you mostly hear, "need 6 or more".

Thanks for any insight.

 

[GreggZ]

Afternoon GreggZ!

Rainbow question for you. It's a bit difficult to see from your photos, but do you keep groups of each type of rainbows or do you keep just a few individuals? If you keep a group, do you find a specific total is best or not matter?

I think I've decided to go the rainbow route, but my local fish stores usually only have a few at a time. I'm always afraid to pull the trigger as you mostly hear, "need 6 or more".

Thanks for any insight.

Hello @Unexpected.

I've been keeping Rainbows for almost four decades. There are loads of myths out there.

I've kept single species tanks, mixed species tanks, mixed sex tanks, and all male tanks. I've kept them in liquid rock with dKH at 15+, and zero dKH. Here's the thing. The rainbows don't care. Fully mature adult males will show striking colors in any tank.

More important than any of those things is good breeding. We are lucky today that many of the best breeders in the country have been working with wholesalers to bring Rainbows with good lineage into the hobby. Years ago this was not the case and many Rainbows in your LFS were of poor quality breeding.

You do want to keep a well maintained tank with large regular water changes, good surface agitation (oxygen), and a good mix of quality foods.

Here's what I have in my tank right now. It's a total of 19 Rainbows in my 120G tank. They are all males, and they show beautiful colors, especially when they "flash" and spar with each other. I hope that helps. Let me know if you have any other questions.

3 Melanotaenia sp. Kali Tawa
3 Melanotaenia Boesemani "Aytinjo"
2 Chilatherina Alleni "Wapoga River"
2 Melanotaenia Lacustris (Lake Kutubu)
2 Melanotaenia Trifasciata (Goyder River)
2 Glossolepis pseudoincisus (Albino Millennium)
1 Melanotaenia Mairasi
1 Glossolepis Dorityi (Dority)
1 Melanotaenia Herbertaxelrodi
1 Melanotaenia sp. Lengguru
1 Chilatherina Bleheri

 

[Unexpected]

Hello @Unexpected.

I've been keeping Rainbows for almost four decades. There are loads of myths out there.

I've kept single species tanks, mixed species tanks, mixed sex tanks, and all male tanks. I've kept them in liquid rock with dKH at 15+, and zero dKH. Here's the thing. The rainbows don't care. Fully mature adult males will show striking colors in any tank.

More important than any of those things is good breeding. We are lucky today that many of the best breeders in the country have been working with wholesalers to bring Rainbows with good lineage into the hobby. Years ago this was not the case and many Rainbows in your LFS were of poor quality breeding.

You do want to keep a well maintained tank with large regular water changes, good surface agitation (oxygen), and a good mix of quality foods.

Here's what I have in my tank right now. It's a total of 19 Rainbows in my 120G tank. They are all males, and they show beautiful colors, especially when they "flash" and spar with each other. I hope that helps. Let me know if you have any other questions.

3 Melanotaenia sp. Kali Tawa
3 Melanotaenia Boesemani "Aytinjo"
2 Chilatherina Alleni "Wapoga River"
2 Melanotaenia Lacustris (Lake Kutubu)
2 Melanotaenia Trifasciata (Goyder River)
2 Glossolepis pseudoincisus (Albino Millennium)
1 Melanotaenia Mairasi
1 Glossolepis Dorityi (Dority)
1 Melanotaenia Herbertaxelrodi
1 Melanotaenia sp. Lengguru
1 Chilatherina Bleheri

Thank you very much. Would you share what and how often you feed them?

 

[GreggZ]

Thank you very much. Would you share what and how often you feed them?

Way less than anyone would believe.

One time a day, and not for very long. Overfeeding is not a good thing for a planted tank, and fish need far, far less than people think.

I feed New Life Spectrum sinking pellets, Fluval Bug Bites, and Hikari Vibra Bites. And every once in a while I toss in some freeze dried brine or blood worms.

 

[Mr.Shenanagins]

Hey Greggz, was wondering if you could shed some light on your experiences with kH and why exactly kH is such a hindrance for plant growth. What did you notice about the plants that led you to that conclusion and what if any downsides have there been with going to 0. I’d really like to follow your lead and I believe I accidentally did a long time ago when I started the hobby. I used RODI in a tank a long time ago and only used Kent RO right to reconstitute the minerals, not even knowing what kH was. That tank was actually my most lush and successful tank and it was either 0 or close to that kH wise.

In addition, do you have any tips on how to slowly acclimate a tap water tank to 0 dKh ? Much appreciated.

 

[GreggZ]

Hey Greggz, was wondering if you could shed some light on your experiences with kH and why exactly kH is such a hindrance for plant growth. What did you notice about the plants that led you to that conclusion and what if any downsides have there been with going to 0. I’d really like to follow your lead and I believe I accidentally did a long time ago when I started the hobby. I used RODI in a tank a long time ago and only used Kent RO right to reconstitute the minerals, not even knowing what kH was. That tank was actually my most lush and successful tank and it was either 0 or close to that kH wise.

In addition, do you have any tips on how to slowly acclimate a tap water tank to 0 dKh? Much appreciated.

Funny how dKH was never much discussed years ago but is now a common topic. It’s taken quite a while to dissuade people that a low dKH tank is a pH crash waiting to happen. Old myths still die hard. But more and more folks are understanding the benefits of lower dKH tanks, which is a good thing as it expands the variety of species that can be kept in good health at one time.

If we look at dKH in general terms, the vast majority of plants don’t use it all, and in general most plants prefer softer water. In fact, some need it like a small subset of sensitive species like Erio’s, Syngo’s, Tonina, etc. that need VERY soft water to thrive (0 – 2dKH preferred). Then you have a huge number of species that will do great in anything from zero to about 7 or 8 dKH. There are loads of great tanks out there in this range. Once you get past that range, say 9 to 15 dKH, then you can start running into growth issues with some species, and some species that simply won’t make it. Once you get to 15+ dKH or so you really start to get more limited in the species that will thrive. So put it this way, as dKH gets higher the available pool of plants that can be kept in peak health will be lower.

That being said it doesn’t mean you can’t be successful with a higher dKH tank. As the dKH gets higher, you will be limited by the number of species available that will thrive. But if you choose the right species you can have a fantastic higher dKH tank too. And as far as I have found, there is no downside to keeping a very low or zero dKH tank. So if you have lower dKH source water, consider yourself lucky. And if you have liquid rock for source water, I can tell you that lower dKH will make your planted tank life easier.

For me I saw this personally as I went from very high dKH to RO water. When I first set up my RO water I was adding carbonates and raising dKH, as I had heard that is what you are supposed to do. Over time I kept slowly lowering dKH and each time it seemed the tank became easier, and the number of species I could keep happy at one time went up. Then at some point years ago I asked myself why am I adding any dKH at all? That’s when I went to pure RO with no carbonates or bicarbonates added, and it’s been that way for quite a while now.

Of course the other benefit of RO is that you can control EVERYTHING. So it’s not just the lower dKH, but since it removes everything else, you only add in specifically what you want. With good source water it may not be necessary, but with some poor source water it’s a really good option depending on your ambitions in the hobby.

As to acclimation, the only thing I would worry about would be livestock. The plants won’t care and will adjust. And even with livestock most will do just fine, other than a very small subset that are sensitive to large dKH swings. But in general, most people worry too much about these things and most fish in the hobby can be kept healthy in a wide variety of dKH ranges. For me I’ve kept Rainbowfish in everything from 20+ dKH to zero dKH over several decades and the fish don’t care.

But I understand that some people like to take it slow. If so then then start with maybe a 25% water change with pure RO every three days or so. Then after a couple weeks increase that to 50% or more and you will have effectively lowered your dKH to almost zero.

I hope that helps.

 

[Mr.Shenanagins]

Funny how dKH was never much discussed years ago but is now a common topic. It’s taken quite a while to dissuade people that a low dKH tank is a pH crash waiting to happen. Old myths still die hard. But more and more folks are understanding the benefits of lower dKH tanks, which is a good thing as it expands the variety of species that can be kept in good health at one time.

If we look at dKH in general terms, the vast majority of plants don’t use it all, and in general most plants prefer softer water. In fact, some need it like a small subset of sensitive species like Erio’s, Syngo’s, Tonina, etc. that need VERY soft water to thrive (0 – 2dKH preferred). Then you have a huge number of species that will do great in anything from zero to about 7 or 8 dKH. There are loads of great tanks out there in this range. Once you get past that range, say 9 to 15 dKH, then you can start running into growth issues with some species, and some species that simply won’t make it. Once you get to 15+ dKH or so you really start to get more limited in the species that will thrive. So put it this way, as dKH gets higher the available pool of plants that can be kept in peak health will be lower.

That being said it doesn’t mean you can’t be successful with a higher dKH tank. As the dKH gets higher, you will be limited by the number of species available that will thrive. But if you choose the right species you can have a fantastic higher dKH tank too. And as far as I have found, there is no downside to keeping a very low or zero dKH tank. So if you have lower dKH source water, consider yourself lucky. And if you have liquid rock for source water, I can tell you that lower dKH will make your planted tank life easier.

For me I saw this personally as I went from very high dKH to RO water. When I first set up my RO water I was adding carbonates and raising dKH, as I had heard that is what you are supposed to do. Over time I kept slowly lowering dKH and each time it seemed the tank became easier, and the number of species I could keep happy at one time went up. Then at some point years ago I asked myself why am I adding any dKH at all? That’s when I went to pure RO with no carbonates or bicarbonates added, and it’s been that way for quite a while now.

Of course the other benefit of RO is that you can control EVERYTHING. So it’s not just the lower dKH, but since removes everything else, you only add in specially what you want. With good source water it may not be necessary, with some poor source water it’s a really good option depending on your ambitions in the hobby.

As to acclimation, the only thing I would worry about would be livestock. The plants won’t care and will adjust. And even with livestock most will do just fine, other than a very small subset that are sensitive large dKH swings. But in general, most people worry too much about these things and most fish in the hobby can be kept healthy in a wide variety of dKH ranges. For me I’ve kept Rainbowfish in everything from 20+ dKH to zero dKH over several decades and the fish don’t care.

But I understand that some people like to take it slow. If so then then start with maybe a 25% water change with pure RO every three days or so. Then after a couple weeks increase that to 50% or more and you will have effectively lowered your dKH to almost zero.

I hope that helps.

Yes that helps a lot, thanks for the insight. I, like @JPog am about to move to a new location and the plan is to get my tank back on the right path again.

 

[Tim Harrison]

Shaping up to be an excellent journal as always @GreggZ. Wish you still updated your journal on the other forum. We miss you