Journal Experiment Tank || 90x50x36cm, 39gal, Horizontal Reactor High-energy Aquascape Journal

[Naturescapes_Rocco]

I will have to run the acclimation spreadsheet to see how stable my concentration is. As I dose 3 times a week with totals being 50%-25%-25%. I have never seen issues with bottoming out but I also have never tested nutrient levels in my tanks.

Thanks Skaley! I love your work. If you want me to, I can update the spreadsheet for 3 weekly doses to show/graph the accumulation/use (or you can use Rotala Butterfly to some extent).

For the most part I only see algae from neglect or GDA on glass especially.

This is where I'm at with these tanks, which I think means they're balanced/doing well. GDA on the glass practically seems to be the technical/inderect goal of a well-balanced high tech aquarium...

 

[SkaleyAquatics]

Thanks Skaley! I love your work

Well Thank you!!! It means a lot I am also a huge fan of your work.

 

[Naturescapes_Rocco]

I have to post this here, practically for my own note-taking and timestamping.

The issues I've had in my tanks are micro toxicity, period.

I stopped dosing CSM+B via the chihiros auto doser about 3 weeks ago altogether, and the plants made an IMMEDIATE recovery. I didn't change anything else, not CO2, not light, not twice-weekly macro front loading.

Staurogyne repens leaves straightened out, rotalas began pearling, algae on leaves went away.

I was dosing CSM+B at a rate of about 1.0ppm Fe by proxy per week... when so many others dose so much less. @RickyV doses his 1000gal aquarium at 0.15ppm per week!! Others at 0.2ppm per week, or even 0.7ppm per week at the absolute highest.

I just hate that micros still feel like a mystery to me compared to my knowledge of primary/secondary macros. I know plants need Fe, but the relationships between Fe, Mn, Zn, B, etc. with each other and macros too just annoys the hell out of me. I will really need to try @Burr740's micro mix as an alternative to CSM+B soon.

As of yesterday I am now dosing CSM+B at 0.02ppm Fe per day, for a total of 0.14ppm per week. Only ~15% of what I was dosing previously, and I'm just seeing such good results.

I guess my takeaway is, micro toxicity is a very real thing. Don't overdo micros like you can with macros.

Will update with pics soon.

 

[Mr.Shenanagins]

If I’m not mistaken, the issue with plantex CSM+B is that it wasn’t initially designed for our use. Micro dosing it becomes an issue as it’s not evenly distributed resulting in potentially excessive doses without realizing.

 

[Rob23]

Day 87 update, after 2 weeks away with lights at 25% and a large dose of ferts when I left:​

One thing I really want to note/point out: LOWER LIGHT REALLY HELPED ME.
I tend to err on the side of super-high-energy tanks, but 25% strength lights (I'll get a PAR reading later) did wonders to eliminate algae while still keeping plant growth. I think I'll try running this tank at ~50% strength lighting and see how it goes.

I know a lot of competition guys run their tanks at ~90PAR at the substrate level. That's a LOT less than I've been running, so maybe that's an important thing to consider.

Did you ever get a PAR reading? I'm curious as to why you decided to increase the lights back to 50% after experiencing success at 25%. What power have you been running them at the last few weeks? I have an experimental inert substrate tank running currently that has an average PAR of 90 at substrate, but I'm considering lowering it further to reduce green dust algae on the sand substrate.

Really enjoy reading your updates to this thread.

 

[Jeff Miotke]

I had similar issues with csm+b well over a decade ago also using fe as a proxy at 1ppm. i discontinued using it and never looked back. i remember the twistys and that rotala was the worst hit. its been far too long for me to recall anything else that would be helpful.

 

[Naturescapes_Rocco]

Did you ever get a PAR reading?

Using the Photone app and cosine diffuser in a plastic bag underwater, I was at/near 250 PAR at the surface with the lights set to ~65%.

I did not get a PAR reading for the lights set to 25%.

I'm curious as to why you decided to increase the lights back to 50% after experiencing success at 25%.

The 25% Was just because I was out of town -- I did see great success, but also lost color in the plants and some were growing more "leggy".

What power have you been running them at the last few weeks?

Closer to 50% power, which I think would probably be near 200-250 PAR at the substrate level. But I can check later!

I have an experimental inert substrate tank running currently that has an average PAR of 90 at substrate, but I'm considering lowering it further to reduce green dust algae on the sand substrate.

Post a journal if you haven't already!

I also found a HUGE reduction in GDA when two things happened:

1) Stopped over-dosing micros
2) Split up my macros dose into a 2/3rd, then 1/3rd booster dose halfway through the week.

GDA on hard surfaces is known to happen in tanks with "high" NO3 levels. By splitting up the dose, I reduce the tallest "peak" of NO3 weekly.

If I dose my NO3 in one dose after WC:

Week PPM Max is ~33ppm NO3, with a max difference of 15ppm


If I dose my NO3 in two doses, one larger and one smaller, twice a week:


Week PPM Max is ~25ppm NO3, with a max difference of 7.5ppm


I've found this to majorly help with GDA, alongside reduced micros dosing (for whatever reason).

 

[Naturescapes_Rocco]

I had similar issues with csm+b well over a decade ago also using fe as a proxy at 1ppm. i discontinued using it and never looked back. i remember the twistys and that rotala was the worst hit. its been far too long for me to recall anything else that would be helpful.

Hey Jeff, what do you use for providing micros nowadays? I'm exploring as many options as possible haha

 

[Jeff Miotke]

Hey Jeff, what do you use for providing micros nowadays? I'm exploring as many options as possible haha

Last few years, Tropica. and last year Ive been using GLA. Next up for me would be trying Joe’s

 

[Naturescapes_Rocco]

Day 112 update, recovering from Micro Toxicity!​

I realized I can upload photos directly from my phone's photo library, then edit the post with information. So easy!


Crypt wendtii bronze looking good. New growth on S repens is good, but older leaves still show chlorosis of some kind.


Penthorum sedoides from @Burr740 is just awesome. What a great plant. Slow growing, resilient, bushy, and great color/texture.



Eriocaulon vietnam from @Burr740 making a serious comeback, from just a handful of algae-covered leaves to these guys!



Rotala indica bonsai is algae-free and healthy. Looks much better in person, I swear!



AR Mini is now my go-to "indicator" plant for microtoxicity issues. It stunts SEVERELY when there is too much of... some micro element... in the water.
Look at how damn healthy it is! The best it's been in this tank, and even my other tanks. No more twisted, burnt leaves. Looking really good. I never want to overdose micros again lol



Water clarity is still so good with the Netlea Prefilter setup. I will use horizontal CO2 reactors forever... no mist is amazing for viewing. You can also see how I trimmed the Rotala Blood Red in the back corner to be rounder/shaped well.



Full tank shot. I removed most of the Pogostemon deccanensis in the back-center, to replace with Limnophila aromatica mini from @Burr740. I've never grown it before but I'm very excited to see how it can be shaped into a bush!


These are Crypt parva, growing in completely inert sand. No root tabs, no aquasoil... only water column fertilization. I genuinely think I can get them to form an entire hairgrass-like carpet in this tank, they are all putting out new healthy leaves (finally!). Show this post next time someone says "crypts are root feeding plants". Again, this looks soooo much better in person. I really need to get my old camera out, these photos do not do the tank justice.

Current setup and fertilization:​

CO2 comes on at 5am, reaches 30ppm by lights on, and then 40ppm+ throughout the day. Turns off 1 hour before lights off, all in my DIY Horizontal reactor created from a Netlea Prefilter Large size.

Lights are set to ~50% through the day. They do ramp up, but once they've reached the desired power, I keep them there. Instead of having the light grow/shrink through the day, I speculate that hyper-consistent light is better for plant growth than mimicking natural sun intensity through the day. PAR is probably back up to ~180-200PAR at the substrate, but I should test with the Photone app and the cosine corrector clip on my phone in a plastic bag again.

I fertilize the tank twice a week; once after the ~74% water change on Saturday afternoon/night, and once with a booster on Wednesday morning. I dose the tank with dry salts prepared in advance. To do this, I use small 2oz ramekin cups with lids that I label "Initial" and "Booster". I make all of them in one sitting, once a month, and have them ready for 4 weeks of use.

The initial macro dose is 20-6-26. I mix lightly with a cup of tank water, then toss in.
The booster macro dose is 10-3-13. The weekly total is 30-9-39.

Micros are currently CSM+B. I dissolve 14g CSM+B, 0.2g Potass. Sorbate, and 0.2g Ascorbic Acid in 450mL RO water to make a micro solution, then dosed at 1mL/day, or 0.02ppm Fe by proxy per day for a total of 0.14ppm Fe per week.

Let me know if you have any questions!

 

[Rob23]

Tank is looking great. Have you noticed any difference in the growth habit of C. parva since you lowered the level of micros that you're dosing? I ask because I am surprised by the upright growth you're experiencing at that PAR level. I'm running a lower PAR level of 90 and the C. parva tends to grow much flatter against the sand substrate.

 

[Naturescapes_Rocco]

Thanks Rob, I appreciate you following along. The only difference I've seen in the C parva since slashing my CSM+B micros dose is generally improved growth rate and reduction of any remaining hair algae.

I agree, the new growth is growing somewhat "upright", but not too much -- definitely not flat like the Crypt wendtii bronze, that's for sure (flat as a pancake during the day!).

I'll post updates of the C parva carpet it as it grows since it's one of my favorite plants, and I've never grow it like this (nor grown this much of it!).

 

[JayP]

Full tank shot. I removed most of the Pogostemon deccanensis in the back-center, to replace with Limnophila aromatica mini from @Burr740. I've never grown it before but I'm very excited to see how it can be shaped into a bush!

My Limnophila from Burr740 pretty much grew into a nicely formed bush on it's own in my farm tank.

 

[CincyScaper]

Awesome-looking tank and great pictures!

Curious what made you decide to remove the P. decannensis? Mine are still pretty small, but I’ve been fascinated by that fine, needle-like texture.

Also, I noticed Burr Aqua had L. aromatica ‘Mini’ in stock during my last order, is that the one you ordered? I didn’t realize it could actually work well as a background plant since I thought of it as more of a midground option.

 

[Naturescapes_Rocco]

Curious what made you decide to remove the P. decannensis? Mine are still pretty small, but I’ve been fascinated by that fine, needle-like texture.

1. I've grown it a ton, and know it well and I'm bored lol
2. The stems that survived the algae/microtox/problem period didn't look up to my standards!

So I kicked the majority, kept 5 good stems and planted them behind the blyxa, between the rotala blood red and L aro mini.

Also, I noticed Burr Aqua had L. aromatica ‘Mini’ in stock during my last order, is that the one you ordered? I didn’t realize it could actually work well as a background plant since I thought of it as more of a midground option.

This tank isn't super tall, but I'm keen to give it a try regardless! I've grown the larger variant, but I'd like to try this smaller one and I've seen lots of people have success with growing/shaping it no different than other stem plants.

@Dennis Wong has a great article on it: How to Grow Limnophila aromatica




All credit to these 3 pictures goes to Dennis Wong and 2hraquarist.com!

 

[CincyScaper]

@Dennis Wong has a great article on it: How to Grow Limnophila aromatica

Yes, I saw that article and was planning to get L. aromatica, but I noticed that BurrAqua had the mini version. I ended up going with L. hippuroides instead, excited to see how it turns out!

 

[Naturescapes_Rocco]

Day 115-120 update:​

Top down during weekly 75% water change!

From the front, the S. repens looks amazing... but there is CLEARLY some kind of chlorosis going on. Leaves stopped being crinkled and wavy, but now I have this. It looks really good from the front, but could it be iron deficiency? Not sure.





Side view showing healthy plant growth and turnaround!


L aromatica mini in the back/venter is looking good.



After the recent trim, Rotala blood red bush is looking pretty good!



Current PPMs are still:

(30-9-39)
30ppm NO3 per week
9ppm PO4 per week
39ppm K per week
(macros delivered in 2/3rd dose after WC and 1/3rd dose midweek)

~20-25ppm Ca
~5-7ppm Mg
(Secondary macros/Remineralization delivered after WC)

Micros are still CSM+B, dosing at:
0.02ppm Fe or less per week
(Micros delivered daily from autodoser)

 

[JayP]

From the front, the S. repens looks amazing... but there is CLEARLY some kind of chlorosis going on. Leaves stopped being crinkled and wavy, but now I have this. It looks really good from the front, but could it be iron deficiency? Not sure.

While it may be a health issue, it kind of looks cool in the photo, almost like a variegated version of S.Repens.

 

[Jeff Miotke]

How has your experience using the BDBS instead of aquasoil been so far? Any conclusions? Any revelations? Also what are your accumulated nutrients at this point?

 

[Naturescapes_Rocco]

How has your experience using the BDBS instead of aquasoil been so far? Any conclusions? Any revelations? Also what are your accumulated nutrients at this point?

It's been so interesting, and very educational!

The bad:

• Inert substrate in a high-energy tank is EXTREMELY unforgiving. It's 100% up to you to know what your plants need, in what ratios/levels/frequencies, and to do the work.
• BDBS is pretty fine compared to aquasoils, so siphoning/turkey basting will often dig the sand up really badly.
• BDBS also scratches the glass for sure. You have to be VERY careful to make sure it doesn't get stuck in your scraper.
• The diatoms I got were truly the worst I've ever seen. The photos only show half of it; it was horrible and I'm not sure why it happened, other than the substrate might have needed some time to leach some stuff out initially? I think next time I'll run it with pure RO water in a 1-2 week dark start with carbon in the filter setup, so everything can massively leech out and I can get it super clean and cycled in the dark before planting.
• Not everyone rinses it, but mine had a serious amount of dust and even a super oily substance on the surface of the buckets I used to rinse it. I cannot recommend rinsing it enough, rinse the hell out of it!

The good:

• It's kind of amazing for all sorts of reasons. Easy to add once rinsed. No plant-melting ammonia spike upon setup. SUPER easy to plant in, even easier than with aquasoils. Dense, dark, even looks semi-natural somehow.
• Color is fine/good. It's a bit "shiny" but does a great job of making fish and plants stand out.
• I LOVE HAVING A SUBSTRATE THAT DOESN'T CHANGE WATER CHEMISTRY. PO4 absorption? Not a thing. When I add PO4, or Fe, or anything, I know it will stay in the water column instead of random absorption via aquasoils.
• Because of this, test kits are more reliable. If my NO3 bottoms out, I KNOW it's bottomed out. Instead of wondering if the aquasoil will hold up, or for how long it will hold up, it's all up to me!
• KH reduction? Doesn't happen! CEC capture of water column nutrients? Minimal. While the "bad" side of the coin is that it's 100% up to you to customize your water chemistry when using BDBS (instead of aquasoil), the "good" side of the coin is that YOU FINALLY GET 100% CONTROL OF YOUR WATER CHEMISTRY.
• The price is insane for the volume. I'm thinking of switching my big 150p/140gal tank over to BDBS at this point. If I were to re-fill the entire tank with aquasoil, it would cost about $600-900 again. The same volume in BDBS? $90-$120 or less.
• Longevity seems WAY higher with something like BDBS for a reason I can't quite put my finger on.

So I'm no BDBS evangelist -- I think my experience has been fairly realistic. I think this sand is either good for the most entry level hobbyist doing a low-light, non CO2 injected tank, OR for the top-level aquarist who understands all of the science, ratios, dosing, accumulation, and maintenance required.

For me personally, I am surprised at how well ALL the plants are doing with just water column dosing. Crypt parva, growing like crazy in completely inert sand? Based off of facebook/reddit/youtube information, that's considered impossible as these are "root feeders" lol. Turns out, aquatic plant stem/leaf tissues (as scientific studies have confirmed) are quite capable of osmosis/absorption of water-column nutrients.

So, my final thoughts are:

• Do you know how to calculate/understand individual fertilizer PPMs? Can you use either premade EI ferts, or DIY dry ferts, and know how they accumulate based on weekly plant uptake, dosing, and water changes? Are you willing to accept that BDBS offers zero nutrients, so it all has to come from you?

If so, BDBS is right for you!

• Do you have no idea what macro/micro ferts actually are? Do you refer to all fertilizers are general "nutrients"? Do you enjoy success for the 6-8 month aquasoil-covered period with minimal/lean dosing? Do you stick pothos cuttings in your tank to remove "excess nutrients"?

If so, BDBS will likely be a bad choice.