Journal Ben's Plant Pharm 2.0

[BenB]

I hope you can figure this out. Don't give up!

Ah.... I'm just frustrated. I'm sure I'm here to stay. I wish I had hobbies like knitting that when I was a little burned out, I could just put it away for awhile. But no, I like plants. I used to have several hundred orchids.

Yeah, even my experience with the APT all-n-ones is that if I start with heavy dosing too early, especially APT 3 and before plant mass is well established, the algae struggle is rough. I'm still not knowledgeable enough to know how to avoid it other than dosing lean early on. I could use some in-person training from some of our experts here.

This is actually my new strategy. It will be a few days before I get around to making a post. I DIY'ed some macros and going to start doing daily. More on that later.

I had this thought as well as I'm about to plant and dial in my tank this weekend. My initial idea is to bury APT Jazz tabs under the planting areas where my stems will be and then start with APT 1 for a few months and then gradually switch over to APT 3, or skip Jazz until my controsoil is done kicking nutrients and start straight off with APT 3 at half dose.

I don't know enough about those products, but I have the Jazz, and it's convenient to use you tweezers and shove under a special group of plants you feel needs a boost. I lean more towards a few spoonfuls of the Feast though when I want to supplement a certain area of my tank. Its cheaper. Again, I don't know as much about those products, but it might make sense that it's a good natural progression to start with 1, then graduate to 3 as your plants establish, then use E as your aquasoil gets depleted. Maybe that is the intent. I haven't looked into them.

I have Control Soil as well. It's hard to find good info on all the different brands. It was my intention to use different ones and report back how high my initial ammonia levels were and how long it seemed to be before they gave out. That didn't pan out. Oh well.

Thanks everybody!!

 

[Fishstery]

Ah.... I'm just frustrated. I'm sure I'm here to stay. I wish I had hobbies like knitting that when I was a little burned out, I could just put it away for awhile. But no, I like plants. I used to have several hundred orchids.


This is actually my new strategy. It will be a few days before I get around to making a post. I DIY'ed some macros and going to start doing daily. More on that later.


I don't know enough about those products, but I have the Jazz, and it's convenient to use you tweezers and shove under a special group of plants you feel needs a boost. I lean more towards a few spoonfuls of the Feast though when I want to supplement a certain area of my tank. Its cheaper. Again, I don't know as much about those products, but it might make sense that it's a good natural progression to start with 1, then graduate to 3 as your plants establish, then use E as your aquasoil gets depleted. Maybe that is the intent. I haven't looked into them.

I have Control Soil as well. It's hard to find good info on all the different brands. It was my intention to use different ones and report back how high my initial ammonia levels were and how long it seemed to be before they gave out. That didn't pan out. Oh well.

Thanks everybody!!

Yeah, Dennis suggests APT 1 for the first 3 months or so if using fresh aquasoil, until you build enough plant mass. APT 3 is meant to be sufficient enough to grow whatever you want to but keeping growth speeds moderate, APT E is meant for fast growth and propagation with densely planted tanks with demanding species. I haven't used the APT line up in years, but back a few years ago I grew Macandra Mini cultivars with controsoil and APT 3 with 150 PAR at the substrate and didn't have any stunting, just slow growth.

For me at least, controsoil is always very consistent with leeching 2ppm of ammonia. The nutrients will remain as long as you keep up with water column dosing, aside from ammonia. The buffering capacity depends on the water source, I use tap water that's a pH of 7.8, 6-7 dgh, and 4-5 dkh , and the buffering kicks out around 6-12 months. I've only messed with RO water in a Nano dutch hybrid and still had algae issues, so with my new 50 gallon I'm just going to use tap and deal with the lack of buffering later by using Dennis's method of uprooting plant sections and replacing the soil a few cups at a time, vs trying to reset the entire tank. Or decide if I want to finally set up my 5 stage RODI system and deal with making RO.

 

[BenB]

I don’t want this to seem as bleak as it looks in the pics. It’s a hot mess, but I have new fast growing tc plants. Hopefully things will calm down, but as I write this my tank doesn't seem to be pearling much. My biggest concern at the moment is that I seem to have the same algae @bradquade had that attacked the lower portions of his plants. Some of the tc I bought a few weeks ago dissolved and disappeared almost overnight. I bought a few cups of tc locally that didn’t have to be shipped and were in better shape. So far so good. Hopefully they get going before the algae gets hold.

A message from Brad made me evaluate what I had done to my tank recently that could have cause this. I had just put in some new tc plants and added aquasoil. Probably the spike in ammonia coupled with the low established healthy plant mass shocked the stability of the system and exacerbated my problems. So, since things are not happy anyway, it’s a good time to change dosing regimens.

I'm switching to daily dosing for the best stability. I've been avoiding daily dosing because I didn't want to be tied down to my tank, but since I go look at it multiple times daily anyway, why not? I'm dosing 2.5ppm NO3, 0.8ppm PO4, and 2ppm K daily in addition to micros. I'm front loading with a double dose after a 50% water change. I've already been doing this several days. You can see in THIS thread that my initial concern is that I might not be starting with a high enough level of macros. That will need to be determined. If my plants don't get back pearling, I might test earlier, but the plan is to keep with this regimen a couple weeks for levels to settle out, and then do some testing while keeping an eye on the plants to make sure my levels are high enough.

I bought Rotala rotundifolia ‘Blood Red,’ Monte Carlo, and P helferi tc plants. First time I’ve ever had the Blood Red. I’ve never seen tc change to submerged form and take off so fast. The Monte Carlos isn’t something I really wanted, but I felt it would suck down nutrients and help restore stability quickly. I already had the P helferi, but I had thinned it because it had grown out of control. It was after the thinning of some plants that I added the aquasoil and all this started. When everything with south, much of what I had left died, and what didn’t die was struggling. The tc I ordered died quickly. The new locally bought cup is hanging in there.

One day I'll have a set up with no issues, but then what would I talk to you guys about?


Healthy vs stunting R macrandra

Melted plants

 

[Sb1415]

I share your frustration, but i am sure like everything else ... this too shall pass!

The algae on the R.Florida, looks very much like the one in Dennis wong's article on nutrient stability where he called it as fuzz algae representing instability. I am sure you have read that article as well.

The blood red is an awesome plant, i am sure you will love it. The two other plants that were similar or faster in growth rate for me where the Limnophilla wilsonii from @Burr740 and Rotala HRA. Not sure how fast montecarlo would grow for you but mine have been pretty slow, Hydrocotyle tripartita is a little bigger but very very aggressive and quick grower and i am sure would be a nice alternative if you are interested in looking it up. It is a pain to take care off unless you can keep it contained, but I can see it being kept to reach stability similar to pearl weed.

 

[Fishstery]

So I'm by no means an expert, but just a few notes after reading through your journal from the beginning. I know this is a farm tank and it's easier to not have livestock so you can crank the co2 and ferts, but have you considered adding a cleanup crew? They really are incredibly important to have, even in a farm tank. Ramshorn snails are so hardy they should tolerate higher co2 levels well enough, and with a lack of fish to feed they shouldn't overpopulate. If/when the tank finally stabilizes, you can toss in some assassin snails to mow the population down so that you can have snail free plants to sell or whatever your intention is. Amano shrimp will decimate any fluffy filamentous algae which seems to be a big issue for you, but then you'd have to scale back your co2. Nerite snails will tolerate crazy co2 levels as well, and will keep your glass clean. I genuinely think having some Lil helpers to keep decaying organic matter under control would really do you a favor.

My second note is your filtration and flow. I noticed you have a HOB and skimmer, but IMO, nothing provides proper water circulation like a canister. Cyano hates strong flow. It would also help keep a lot of that dusty algae at bay, by giving enough flow to keep plant leaves gently moving and avoid gunk settling. I've found high co2 saturation requires stronger surface agitation, more than a gentle ripple. Using a canister with filter floss that you replace biweekly will really help polish up your water and catch any free floating debris and algae spores to help minimalize them settling and colonizing on your plants. A canister would also allow you to use an inline diffuser, which stays clean and clear of gunk buildup for far longer than an internal diffuser, it will also reduce co2 waste and get it evenly and consistently saturated in the water column.

Lastly, less is sometimes more my guy! I feel like the constant addition of fresh aquasoil is just throwing a lot of your fert dosing out of whack. I really feel no need to replace aquasoil until the pH and kH buffering kicks out. It absorbs all the ferts you dose in the water column, so I don't really think a tank this scale requires a constant fresh supply of soil, unless you have some really needy root feeders like Cabomba or Lilies IMO. Controsoil holds up its density and shape for a really long time with no crumbling unless you dig around in it too much.

 

[Sb1415]

They really are incredibly important to have, even in a farm tank.

Maybe it is just my experience but Amano shrimps seem to do nothing to my filamentous algae in my tank but maybe that is a different type than what Ben has. Nerite snails did not survive in my tank with co2 at 40 ppm and when they did they would always try to escape and this seems like a consistent experience in this forum. I felt quite bad for them. They also did not make a huge dent on my GSA, but maybe I needed many to notice a difference. Haven’t tried Ramshorn though.

 

[Fishstery]

Maybe it is just my experience but Amano shrimps seem to do nothing to my filamentous algae in my tank but maybe that is a different type than what Ben has. Nerite snails did not survive in my tank with co2 at 40 ppm and when they did they would always try to escape and this seems like a consistent experience in this forum. I felt quite bad for them. They also did not make a huge dent on my GSA, but maybe I needed many to notice a difference. Haven’t tried Ramshorn though.

Interesting, a few years back I had a nano garden style that I used as a plant nursery and due to my own inexperience with that level of setup I had a huge battle very similar to Ben. Brown diatoms, a ton of hair/thread algae, and cyano. I introduced a group of amanos and they did very well with co2 between 35-40ppm but I had very strong surface agitation in that tank. I'll see if I can find the photos, they cleaned it out in 3-4 days. The problem is I also found out that they have some sort of weird bloodthirst for alternanthera species, especially the mini cultivar. They picked it clean of every leaf, even healthy ones and I had to remove them. I guess they prefer it, even with supplemental feedings.

Nerites almost always find their way out of the water in tanks without lids, I had a few of mine that were in low techs crawl out and go MIA for a few days. I'd find them in random spots of the house thinking they were dead, but a few hours after putting them back in the tank and they were back to normal. They seem to be adapted to periods without water or something.

I haven't ever purposefully introduced ramshorn snails before, but my plant order from Joe came partially frozen and I had a lot of melt. I tried my best to clean everything up and removed dead leaves prior to putting them in my new tank, but over the weekend I had a lot more melt. Ramshorns are really good at eating up dead plant matter, so I grabbed a group from my other tanks and put them in since the tank is not stable enough for shrimp just yet.

 

[BenB]

I share your frustration, but i am sure like everything else ... this too shall pass!

It was doing pretty good until I added the aquasoil. I'll get it back going.

Dennis wong's article on nutrient stability where he called it as fuzz algae representing instability. I am sure you have read that article as well.

Yes, but I decided to get it back out and read again. It can't hurt.

It is a pain to take care off unless you can keep it contained, but I can see it being kept to reach stability similar to pearl weed.

Yeah, the goal mainly is to reach some stability. Your tank is part of the reason I'm going to try daily dosing. It seems to be working for you, and your tank looks great.... when you're not being fair and cleaning up the algae before you take the pic. If you have your ammonia fixed, I bet yours takes off, and I know you do daily dosing. I'm just more of a nerd and wanted to make my own.

So I'm by no means an expert, but just a few notes after reading through your journal from the beginning. I know this is a farm tank and it's easier to not have livestock so you can crank the co2 and ferts, but have you considered adding a cleanup crew? They really are incredibly important to have, even in a farm tank. Ramshorn snails are so hardy they should tolerate higher co2 levels well enough, and with a lack of fish to feed they shouldn't overpopulate. If/when the tank finally stabilizes, you can toss in some assassin snails to mow the population down so that you can have snail free plants to sell or whatever your intention is. Amano shrimp will decimate any fluffy filamentous algae which seems to be a big issue for you, but then you'd have to scale back your co2. Nerite snails will tolerate crazy co2 levels as well, and will keep your glass clean. I genuinely think having some Lil helpers to keep decaying organic matter under control would really do you a favor.

Snails aren't going to work for me. My pH is 5-6 and their shells just melt and they die. I was thinking about Malaysian Trumpet Snails, but @Koan reminded me of the conflict. I've made multiple posts about shrimp and have waffled about on getting them. I had about decided to pull the trigger when it turned super cold here. I'll try to rebuild my resolve when it warms up.

My second note is your filtration and flow. I noticed you have a HOB and skimmer, but IMO, nothing provides proper water circulation like a canister. Cyano hates strong flow. It would also help keep a lot of that dusty algae at bay, by giving enough flow to keep plant leaves gently moving and avoid gunk settling. I've found high co2 saturation requires stronger surface agitation, more than a gentle ripple. Using a canister with filter floss that you replace biweekly will really help polish up your water and catch any free floating debris and algae spores to help minimalize them settling and colonizing on your plants. A canister would also allow you to use an inline diffuser, which stays clean and clear of gunk buildup for far longer than an internal diffuser, it will also reduce co2 waste and get it evenly and consistently saturated in the water column.

I actually get a bit more surface agitation than you'd expect. I'll keep that in mind though. My main reason for wanting the HOB is because I am also hiding the heater in it. I got the idea from a George Farmer video where he does it. With such a small tank, anything I can keep out of it helps. I had a canister on it in the past, and it was just too much. I had an inline CO2 difuser at that time also. I was always frustrated because of the bubbles in my water. I tried it on the intake side at one point. My filter built up a little gas, but it didn't stall out, and I didn't have the bubbles in my tank. So I did get it to work, but not as much as I'd like.

Lastly, less is sometimes more my guy! I feel like the constant addition of fresh aquasoil is just throwing a lot of your fert dosing out of whack. I really feel no need to replace aquasoil until the pH and kH buffering kicks out. It absorbs all the ferts you dose in the water column, so I don't really think a tank this scale requires a constant fresh supply of soil, unless you have some really needy root feeders like Cabomba or Lilies IMO. Controsoil holds up its density and shape for a really long time with no crumbling unless you dig around in it too much.

Oh yeah definitely. I don't think the addition of the soil would have made such a disproportionate impact though, except my tank had been doing well, and I needed to thin out some plants and also decided to swap out the H zosterfolia. So the ammonia pop and having almost 50% less plant mass was a double shot of instability. I wanted to add the soil mostly because I didn't have enough. My foreground plants were too shallow. Before this, I think I'd only added a few spoonfuls here and there around special plants like Dennis recommends.

 

[Fishstery]

It was doing pretty good until I added the aquasoil. I'll get it back going.


Yes, but I decided to get it back out and read again. It can't hurt.


Yeah, the goal mainly is to reach some stability. Your tank is part of the reason I'm going to try daily dosing. It seems to be working for you, and your tank looks great.... when you're not being fair and cleaning up the algae before you take the pic. If you have your ammonia fixed, I bet yours takes off, and I know you do daily dosing. I'm just more of a nerd and wanted to make my own.


Snails aren't going to work for me. My pH is 5-6 and their shells just melt and they die. I was thinking about Malaysian Trumpet Snails, but @Koan reminded me of the conflict. I've made multiple posts about shrimp and have waffled about on getting them. I had about decided to pull the trigger when it turned super cold here. I'll try to rebuild my resolve when it warms up.


I actually get a bit more surface agitation than you'd expect. I'll keep that in mind though. My main reason for wanting the HOB is because I am also hiding the heater in it. I got the idea from a George Farmer video where he does it. With such a small tank, anything I can keep out of it helps. I had a canister on it in the past, and it was just too much. I had an inline CO2 difuser at that time also. I was always frustrated because of the bubbles in my water. I tried it on the intake side at one point. My filter built up a little gas, but it didn't stall out, and I didn't have the bubbles in my tank. So I did get it to work, but not as much as I'd like.


Oh yeah definitely. I don't think the addition of the soil would have made such a disproportionate impact though, except my tank had been doing well, and I needed to thin out some plants and also decided to swap out the H zosterfolia. So the ammonia pop and having almost 50% less plant mass was a double shot of instability. I wanted to add the soil mostly because I didn't have enough. My foreground plants were too shallow. Before this, I think I'd only added a few spoonfuls here and there around special plants like Dennis recommends.

I think refreshing the soil works in Dennis's tanks mostly because he's only adding it A) with large amounts of plant mass B) most of his setups are large volumes C) his tank has already reached a point of stability and consistent plant growth. I wouldn't mess with fresh soil once you reach your desired substrate height, unless you notice one plant struggling while others are doing well, that allows you to bump specific species without changing your water volume dosing if everyone else is growing well.

As for the canister, its definitely an investment but the Oase Biomaster Thermos are excellent, Dennis actually uses them as well as a lot of professional scapers. The integrated heater is really nice to have, the removable pre-filters are easy to do regular cleanings on without having to tear the entire canister open, and it has a close valve built in so you can adjust your flow rate without needing any double tap valves, although you can get a cheaper model canister without an internal heater and just splice in double tap valves, they also make cleaning the pipes a breeze because you just close off the siphon and disconnect the portion attached to the pipes. I love having an inline diffuser although I do agree the champagne water is bothersome to some people, which is understandable. If you aren't keen on a canister, adding a WaveMaker mid level will help give flow to the lower portion of the tank. Hygger makes a really nice low profile one that has an adjustable flow rate, although shrimp would need to be monitored around it. I've never had any problems with my crystal red shrimp in my 12 gal long with WaveMaker though.

As for snails, yes totally true that they do have a hard time in soft water. Ramshorn snails are one of the most adaptable snail species IMO, they do just fine in acidic water as long as you supplement calcium in their diets regularly. Shrimp mineral food is sufficient for this.

I think trying to find a compatible clean up crew along with just ignoring the algae is your best move here! The more attention you pay to it the more fiddling you will do which will unintentionally cause more instability. I'd just get to a comfortable spot with your fert dosing and stay on top of your water changes and cleaning and let that baby ride for a month and reevaluate then. My old nano tank looked a lot like yours and I was pulling my hair out over it. Amanos helped me get an edge on it and then I adjusted my lighting and ferts and it was smooth sailing from there until I introduced plants from another hobbyist that brought an infestation of spirogyra algae, which killed my resolve so much I tore the tank down. That stuff is a real SOB.

 

[BenB]

Update
Somewhere I mentioned that my plan for the tank was to do the daily dosing for a couple weeks, monitor the plants, and then test to see where I was. However, today as I thought about it, I realized it doesn't make much sense to dose for 2 weeks not knowing if I have that ~10pm minimal base pool of NO3. If I'm dosing 2.5ppm NO3 daily and my NO3 level was only 4, I would already be starting off on the wrong foot and just delaying finding it out by 2 weeks.

So I tested today and it was 6.6ppm NO3. Glad I did. So I added 2 extra doses in addition to my normal daily dose, gave it 15 minutes to circulate, and tested again. This time I was at 13.2ppm NO3. Perfect! My @Naturescapes_Rocco chart looks right on target to just slightly high, but much better than if I had started at 6.6.

 

[Naturescapes_Rocco]

If I'm dosing 2.5ppm NO3 daily and my NO3 level was only 4, I would already be starting off on the wrong foot and just delaying finding it out by 2 weeks.

Right on. This is how I think daily dosing is done best -- start with an already large reserve of macros after WC, and daily dose to help maintain those levels within reason.

 

[Sb1415]

Yeah, the goal mainly is to reach some stability. Your tank is part of the reason I'm going to try daily dosing. It seems to be working for you, and your tank looks great.... when you're not being fair and cleaning up the algae before you take the pic. If you have your ammonia fixed, I bet yours takes off, and I know you do daily dosing. I'm just more of a nerd and wanted to make my own.

Well I can promise you that my algae is not going anywhere and it is rearing its full head and I am going to post a pic in all fairness