The Role of Potassium?

[plantbrain]

@plantbrain, would you say that a richer substrate with some of the above qualities would be a better substrate than an inert one with just water column fertilization?

Water column can act synergistically with rich sediment. You can go cold turkey and just run rich sediment. There are a few groups that do this every few years but it's never gained much traction, then one or several of them start adding Micros or think the K+ is magic and required with the method. It is not.

I see few good reasons to NOT use a clay sediment like ADA AS.
It makes your tank grow nicer plants with less dependence on the water column.
So either way, it's better to have it.

In some cases for a speciality tank, plain sand only might be a good idea, but these tend to use tough hardy plant, and there might be a hardscape or fish dependence. These are exceptions. I have a few examples like this one. Plants all emergent, white thin layer of sand.

No matter how good your water column dosing is, the fact remains that adding a rich soil will only help more in almost all cases. We can generalize and say this as matter of advice. A few exception perhaps, but very few.

 

[JPog]

Water column can act synergistically with rich sediment. You can go cold turkey and just run rich sediment. There are a few groups that do this every few years but it's never gained much traction, then one or several of them start adding Micros or think the K+ is magic and required with the method. It is not.

I see few good reasons to NOT use a clay sediment like ADA AS.
It makes your tank grow nicer plants with less dependence on the water column.
So either way, it's better to have it.

In some cases for a speciality tank, plain sand only might be a good idea, but these tend to use tough hardy plant, and there might be a hardscape or fish dependence. These are exceptions. I have a few examples like this one. Plants all emergent, white thin layer of sand.

No matter how good your water column dosing is, the fact remains that adding a rich soil will only help more in almost all cases. We can generalize and say this as matter of advice. A few exception perhaps, but very few.

Since we're on the topical of sediment nutrients what are you thoughts on plants receiving ammonia vs nitrate. Other than speed, are there plants that you've encountered that require and/or need ammonia to do their absolute best since the ammonia converts easier to a usable form.

 

[plantbrain]

Since we're on the topical of sediment nutrients what are you thoughts on plants receiving ammonia vs nitrate. Other than speed, are there plants that you've encountered that require and/or need ammonia to do their absolute best since the ammonia converts easier to a usable form.

Erios might like the NH4 or rather, it bound to the clay. Blood vomits are one such plant that really likes the new soil or added NH4. Many Syng's do also. Stem plants seem less picky about NO3 vs NH4. We cannot really get too far away from purity here also, it's rare that it's 100% NH4, or 100% NO3. Bacteria, leaching, heterotrophic sources, fish, shrimp, bacterial etc. A % ratio between the two is more practical. What is the optima for plants? Only with specific growth studies can make a decent list. You can also dose plenty of KNO3 or something with ample NO3, then try with (NH4)2SO4 etc. You can see what you might think is better growth. After doing it for a long time, changing other things around etc, or using old vs new ADA AS, you can see differences. Other see them also, maybe correlation, but over time I think we can say somethings about certain species. I mean we can all see and agree on CO2 being a huge factor in rates of growth, even if only a few plants have been studied with CO2 enrichment vs growth. Some things are wide observations over time by many people. Unless that is falsified/tested and found false.........we generally accept such things. It's gotten us in trouble before.........and may again. But I've found it be true for the species I listed. I tried to disprove it.

 

[JPog]

Erios might like the NH4 or rather, it bound to the clay. Blood vomits are one such plant that really likes the new soil or added NH4. Many Syng's do also. Stem plants seem less picky about NO3 vs NH4. We cannot really get too far away from purity here also, it's rare that it's 100% NH4, or 100% NO3. Bacteria, leaching, heterotrophic sources, fish, shrimp, bacterial etc. A % ratio between the two is more practical. What is the optima for plants? Only with specific growth studies can make a decent list. You can also dose plenty of KNO3 or something with ample NO3, then try with (NH4)2SO4 etc. You can see what you might think is better growth. After doing it for a long time, changing other things around etc, or using old vs new ADA AS, you can see differences. Other see them also, maybe correlation, but over time I think we can say somethings about certain species. I mean we can all see and agree on CO2 being a huge factor in rates of growth, even if only a few plants have been studied with CO2 enrichment vs growth. Some things are wide observations over time by many people. Unless that is falsified/tested and found false.........we generally accept such things. It's gotten us in trouble before.........and may again. But I've found it be true for the species I listed. I tried to disprove it.

Thanks for those comments Tom and does sync with some of the other chatter I've heard from certain individuals in the hobby. The Blood vomit was one of the species I was curious about. Like most things, we can't put everything neatly into one bucket. I do have these growing fairly well, but I wouldn't say robust in inert sand with high everything else. Luckily I still have some ADA aquasoil lying around in my garage from probably 10 years ago when I bought a ton of it. So I'll do some of my own experimenting and see what develops - Jeff

 

[plantbrain]

Thanks for those comments Tom and does sync with some of the other chatter I've heard from certain individuals in the hobby. The Blood vomit was one of the species I was curious about. Like most things, we can't put everything neatly into one bucket. I do have these growing fairly well, but I wouldn't say robust in inert sand with high everything else. Luckily I still have some ADA aquasoil lying around in my garage from probably 10 years ago when I bought a ton of it. So I'll do some of my own experimenting and see what develops - Jeff

A very simple test method to gauge the effectiveness of sediments: pot test. Add whatever variables you like to see any differences. Change water often to remove any leaching effects/foliar up take. You can even wrap the soil and poke a hole for just the plant stem coming out, then add a sponge between the hole and the plant stem to get a tight fit.

Never seen an aquarist do the last step, we did it for herbicide research on aquatics weeds.

So you can compare the differences between inert sand and ADA AS pretty easily. Also, the effects of the leaching from the ADA AS is greatly reduced if the pot is 1) small, 2) the tank used, is really large and not smaller, 3) frequent large water changes are done.

While those three things do not remove 100% of any potential sediment leachate ferts coming out into the water column, you have done your due diligence and tried to account for potential dependencies. This leaves you in a pretty safe position to say the effects on the enriched clay soils on plant growth. Easy to test say your own DIY soil mix, mineralized soil etc, worm castings, peat, various inert products, Eco Incomplete, Flourite, any of the other clay sediments, etc. A few pots of each in one tank. 1 plant species for say 8-16 weeks. Then try another suspect.


Note, most of the other soil makers did not add the ONE THING that made ADA's soil useful and a clear cut above the others: they added NH4 to the soil. Many claimed this was "Bad" for fish and meant you HAD TO DO MORE WATER CHANGES. This is the full Pinocchio however as the NH4 bound soil is what made the ADA AS grow plants so well for 6-12 months or more. Version 2 removed it thinking their dip in business sales volume was due to the NH4 addition, so they took it out. Then people complained and complained. They had one issues then clubbed themselves in the foot and made the problem worse. Other sellers came out with similar products and stated crazy talk to sell their product. That's why the ADA AS sales dropped, not because of the NH4. Their newest stuff returned to the original formula. Some lessons in business are hard also. They do not really make that much off the soil anyway. No one does other than the resellers who mark it up 2x typically their cost.

 

[Art]

I mean we can all see and agree on CO2 being a huge factor in rates of growth, even if only a few plants have been studied with CO2 enrichment vs growth. Some things are wide observations over time by many people. Unless that is falsified/tested and found false.........we generally accept such things. It's gotten us in trouble before.........and may again.

This is very important and I love that you summarized it like this Tom. This is a hobby and, although we like to think otherwise sometimes, we are not using the scientific method (as used in scientific experiments) so must rely on observations over time that have not been falsified.

So true.

 

[JPog]

A very simple test method to gauge the effectiveness of sediments: pot test. Add whatever variables you like to see any differences. Change water often to remove any leaching effects/foliar up take. You can even wrap the soil and poke a hole for just the plant stem coming out, then add a sponge between the hole and the plant stem to get a tight fit.

Never seen an aquarist do the last step, we did it for herbicide research on aquatics weeds.

So you can compare the differences between inert sand and ADA AS pretty easily. Also, the effects of the leaching from the ADA AS is greatly reduced if the pot is 1) small, 2) the tank used, is really large and not smaller, 3) frequent large water changes are done.

While those three things do not remove 100% of any potential sediment leachate ferts coming out into the water column, you have done your due diligence and tried to account for potential dependencies. This leaves you in a pretty safe position to say the effects on the enriched clay soils on plant growth. Easy to test say your own DIY soil mix, mineralized soil etc, worm castings, peat, various inert products, Eco Incomplete, Flourite, any of the other clay sediments, etc. A few pots of each in one tank. 1 plant species for say 8-16 weeks. Then try another suspect.


Note, most of the other soil makers did not add the ONE THING that made ADA's soil useful and a clear cut above the others: they added NH4 to the soil. Many claimed this was "Bad" for fish and meant you HAD TO DO MORE WATER CHANGES. This is the full Pinocchio however as the NH4 bound soil is what made the ADA AS grow plants so well for 6-12 months or more. Version 2 removed it thinking their dip in business sales volume was due to the NH4 addition, so they took it out. Then people complained and complained. They had one issues then clubbed themselves in the foot and made the problem worse. Other sellers came out with similar products and stated crazy talk to sell their product. That's why the ADA AS sales dropped, not because of the NH4. Their newest stuff returned to the original formula. Some lessons in business are hard also. They do not really make that much off the soil anyway. No one does other than the resellers who mark it up 2x typically their cost.

Well, you read my mind, because of this I recently purchased some of those little glass pots/suction cups (which I never thought I'd buy) so I've started to take some of these "NH4 loving Plants" and put them in straight ADA Aquasoil (the good original stuff) within the same tank. This tank has a certain aesthetic so even my "experiments" have to look pretty good and my real estate is pretty limited at the moment.

That's interesting about the ADA soil, I assume too many people didn't know how to handle/start up with it properly and/or read the directions, but I do remember getting that rush of growth from it. Your comments are appreciated.