The Custom Micro Mix Thread

[BigWave]

I completely forgot about this post

Holy crap I never knew this was 93 gal, thought it was maybe

Yeah Ive had it for a while. Been up and running for a number of years now. 93 gallon tank 30" x 30" x 24" and a 20 gallon sump. Switched to the mesh filter socks because the felt / micron ones clog up daily. Main pump is a Jebao DCP 9000 with hard plumbed Big 20" Cergis CO2 Reactor.

Whats the floater on top? Pretty sure I found some in a creek down here in N AL...

That would be out of control Hydrocotyle tripartita 'Japan'. It is by far one of the greatest nutrient suckers on the planet floating like this. Takes away the error of CO2 becuase its floating. Turns different colors depending upon your nitrate levels.

As for your Burr's Micro's um yeah... I have been having the hardest time with making them. Not the calculations or anything but very bad plant symptoms. Stunting, curling leaves, refusing to grow, root problems etc. As in it was so bad I went back to CSM+B and Millers LOL.
Only thing I can come up with is Ive been using Nickel Chloride and Borax instead of NiSO4 and H3BO3.
To summerizer I started fresh and bought some of your mix with that last plant order and things have drastically gotten better.

 

[GreggZ]

Hey @TRyan sorry for the late reply.

At the time I wrote I was dosing a 3x dose right after a water change. I then went to a 2x dose and didn't see any change.

I still do the double dose but honestly I doubt it makes much difference. In the scheme of things dosing a little bit less or a little bit more micros isn't likely to change things much. If you are in the general range with good micros there are a lot more important things that would make much more of a difference.

Hope that helps and always good to hear from you.

 

[TRyan]

Hey @TRyan sorry for the late reply.

At the time I wrote I was dosing a 3x dose right after a water change. I then went to a 2x dose and didn't see any change.

I still do the double dose but honestly I doubt it makes much difference. In the scheme of things dosing a little bit less or a little bit more micros isn't likely to change things much. If you are in the general range with good micros there are a lot more important things that would make much more of a difference.

Hope that helps and always good to hear from you.

Thank you, much appreciated!

 

[Burr740]

As for your Burr's Micro's um yeah... I have been having the hardest time with making them. Not the calculations or anything but very bad plant symptoms. Stunting, curling leaves, refusing to grow, root problems etc. As in it was so bad I went back to CSM+B and Millers LOL.
Only thing I can come up with is Ive been using Nickel Chloride and Borax instead of NiSO4 and H3BO3

To summerizer I started fresh and bought some of your mix with that last plant order and things have drastically gotten better.

I wondered why you grabbed a pack of premix, lol. Meant to ask but had a lot going on and forgot about it. And hmm thats strange. I dont see why either of those compounds would be an issue long as you calculated them right. Anyway Im glad things got better when you started my retail again. Dont hesitate to hollar at me if theres ever an issue or just want to talk about something

 

[Pepere]

I have been supplementing green leaf aquariums edta dtpa micro mix by increasing the zinc and a very small amount of nickel, so I have the zinc, nickel and a milligram scale.

I am looking to buy the rest of the compounds to mix my own as per @GreggZ recommendation in this article.

I have the following compounds in my cart at Amazon.


CuSO4*5H2O.

Copper Sulfate Pentahydrate - 25.2% Cu - 1 Pound - Easy to Dissolve - Powder​

Brand: Alpha Chemicals

Ferrous Gluconate | Half Pound(8oz)​

Visit the NilocG Aquatics Store

Sodium Molybdate - Na2MoO4*2H2O, >99% Pure - 1 Pound​

Brand: Alpha Chemicals

Manganese Sulfate Monohydrate - 32% Mn - 1 Pound​

JMnSO4*H2O, CAS# 10034-96-5, 32% M
Brand : Alpha Chemicals

Boric Acid Pure Fine Granular Powder 1 Lb.Create Your own Solution​

• One (1 Pound)1 Lb. Pure Granular Boric Acid (H3BO3) 99.9+% Purity
• Also called: Orthoboric Acid, Acidum Boricum, Boracic Acid

Brand: Florida chemicals

Greenway Biotech, Inc. Chelated Iron DTPA Fertilizer - High-Efficiency Iron Supplement for Stronger and Healthier Plants-Ideal Iron Deficiency in The Plants - (1 Pound)​

Visit the Greenway Biotech, Inc. Store


Now I have read and re read and I am lretty sure I have all the right compounds and didnt make an error with molecular formulas, and I think that gets me everything I need to recreate @GreggZ micromix he lays out in his article embedded in the thread…


I sure would feel better having at least another set of eyes look over my list and compare it to what Gregg outlined to make sure I did not make a mistake…

I am about 40 years away from college chemistry classes….

Thanks in advance

 

[BigWave]

I sure would feel better having at least another set of eyes look over my list and compare it to what Gregg outlined to make sure I did not make a mistake…

Looks good. Don't forget the Potassium Sorbate and Ascorbic Acid. They are important. I also suggest getting a good stainless steel measuring spoon set. The chemicals eat away at the plastic ones. Depending upon if you create stock solutions of the salts that weigh very small (I dont exactly remember Greggs recipe) you will need several (3 or more) bottles to store the stock solutions in.
Note: Some of them compounds it will take lifetimes to use up so do the calculations and see if you really want a pound (454 grams) of said powder.

 

[BigWave]

@Burr740 I dont remember, what are you dosing as for Macro's, Full Ei? How about gH booster values?

 

[Sulla]

Awesome thread. And thanks @gregg for the write up. I'm guessing that the custom approach makes a big difference to plant health and growth.
Can you elaborate on those benefits vs the csmb solutions? Thanks!

 

[JacksonL]

I have been rolling my own micros for a few years now, since reading a Greggz thread on the UKAPS forum.
Below are what I dose per day and per week:

For iron I dose about 60% DTPA then a mix of gluconate and EDTA for the other 40%. The thought being that I have some long lasting, and some medium and fast acting iron in the system to cover all bases. Who knows if it is needed, but it has been working for me.
I make a stock mixture of the Cu, Mo and Ni to save having to measure tiny amounts, then use that to make up a concentrated mixture that I can make up my dosing bottles from.
Below is the recipe I use:

As above, it all seems to be working. I notice that I am much lower in Mo than some of the above recipes, but I am hesitant to change what is currently working!

 

[JacksonL]

Can you elaborate on those benefits vs the csmb solutions? Thanks!

for me it is knowing I am getting consistent amounts in my aquarium. The CSMB mixes are made in such huge bulk, then split into smaller amounts for wholesalers, then split again to sell to hobbyists (and probably more times than that even!)
If somewhere along that process, the scoop they take out contains more of one element, or almost none of another, then who knows what the mix is by the time I take an even tinier scoop out for my dosing mixture. I could be dosing a lot of one element, and none of another. If you look at the tiny amounts of some of the powders in my recipe above, how is there possibly a bit of everything in the small amounts I measure off to mix into my 450ml dosing container! For some of them I would be hoping there are a few grains in there.

 

[Pepere]

Don't forget the Potassium Sorbate and Ascorbic Acid.

Already have those.

Depending upon if you create stock solutions of the salts that weigh very small (I dont exactly remember Greggs recipe) you will need several (3 or more) bottles to store the stock solutions in.

I have a pair of 1000 ml dosing bottles. I was looking to add another for the secondary solution of very small amount minerals, but so far I am only finding 500 ml dosing bottles at GLA and Nilocg, and nothing to speak of at Amazon.

Any idea who still offers a 1000 ml dosing bottle? I do have 500 ml dosing bottles as well and can simply reduce the weight of compound…

Some of them compounds it will take lifetimes to use up so do the calculations and see if you really want a pound (454 grams) of said powder.

no doubt I will have loads of some compounds my children will dispose of .. but at 6.99 a pound from Alpha chemical, and seeing smaller amounts costing more… it just doesnt make sense to do differently…

 

[Naturescapes_Rocco]

I have been rolling my own micros for a few years now, since reading a Greggz thread on the UKAPS forum.
Below are what I dose per day and per week:
View attachment 13182
For iron I dose about 60% DTPA then a mix of gluconate and EDTA for the other 40%. The thought being that I have some long lasting, and some medium and fast acting iron in the system to cover all bases. Who knows if it is needed, but it has been working for me.
I make a stock mixture of the Cu, Mo and Ni to save having to measure tiny amounts, then use that to make up a concentrated mixture that I can make up my dosing bottles from.
Below is the recipe I use:
View attachment 13183
As above, it all seems to be working. I notice that I am much lower in Mo than some of the above recipes, but I am hesitant to change what is currently working!

I'm genuinely baffled that you guys are able to dose at/near 0.5ppm Fe/week.
I'm running with 75% weekly water changes and still I get horrible stunting/burning if I push my micros past 0.35ppm/week, with high macros (sitting around 25-7-35) and high light. And again, 75% WC. Also, 29-35ppm Ca and 5-7ppm Mg.

I'm getting hopeless, as I just still cannot get this Micros stuff figured out. It has felt like the last piece to this puzzle for me for the last 8 months and nothing I try gives me the results I want.

Currently, I aim for 0.35ppm/week with 75% WC. I divide that into 8 doses, where I do the 8th dose after WC for recovery.

At this routine, I still get twisted, knurled and burnt-red leaves on my AR Mini, Hygro corymbosa 'Compact', and my Ludwigia super red is also the most curled/stunted and dark red I've ever seen it. My Hygro siamensis '53B' literally has burnt red edges and leaves as they grow out.

Is it a light thing?? Does phytotoxicity happen for me because I run higher light than others?

I've now received info from a lot of amazing aquarists that they run their tanks at 0.5ppm Fe micros by proxy per week with 50% WC, but I literally cannot understand how that is possible. I know I'm not some noob who has no idea what he's doing, which makes it worse!

 

[Sulla]

OK @tylergvolk let me expand on this a bit. And hopefully make it clearer but let’s see.

And a warning……you might feel lightheaded after reading this so I would be ready to lay down with cold compress on your forehead for a while.

The first thing is to calculate how much you would be raising the ppm of your primary container if you dosed the tiny amounts without a secondary solution.

So for instance let’s take a look at my micro spreadsheet and work on adding Copper. If I was going to measure the tiny amount and add it to my primary solution I would add .067 grams of CuSO45H2O to my 1000 ml container. These small amounts are difficult to measure with much accuracy.

View attachment 11808

Next we need to calculate how much that raises the PPM of copper in the 1000ml primary mix.
So if I add .067 grams of CuSO45H2O to a 1000 ml container it raises the ppm of Cu to 17.05 ppm in the container. Notice I am using “the result of my dose” in the calculation.

View attachment 11809


So if you are still with me now we will calculate how much we need to add to our secondary solution to raise the PPM of Cu to 17.05 ppm in our primary solution. So to be clear I want to make a 1000ml solution with a dose size of 60ml that will raise the primary solution to 17.05 ppm.

So the calculation tells me that I need to add 1.1165 grams of CuSO45H2O to my secondary solution.

View attachment 11810

Now every time I create a new batch of micros I add a 60ml dose of secondary solution to my primary solution. This provides the correct amount of Cu for the primary solution.

And then calculate the same way for the others.

I hope that helps. Let me know if you have any questions.

Honestly...and don't kill me please

But I've found chatgpt to be amazing at quickly and easily figuring out dosing and dilution calculations. I'd recommend it.

 

[BigWave]

Everyone is quick to forget that this hobby revolved around CSM+B and Millers Microplex for some 10 - 15 years with not too many problems. Yes there was the micro tox wars and It split sides but its all we had at the time. It was these 2 mixes or Flourish and thats it. Come to think of it this brings up another point that was the start of the entire dosing lean phenomenon, PMDD or Tropica Specialized This is also when All in One Solutions started becoming popular with the DIY versions from James Planted Tank. Not until recently, last several years, when Joe started creating Micro Mixes and fiddling with numbers did things change. I find it funny how this hobby goes through fazes and people tend to forget all the knowledge of the past.

 

[BenB]

Can you elaborate on those benefits vs the csmb solutions? Thanks!

My thoughts are basically what @JacksonL said. When I saw people commenting some years back about CSM+B not being very well mixed for small portion usage usually, I looked at my jar of it and literally I could see layers where there were more bits of some things than others. And this was just in a 1lb jar of it.

When I got back going in the hobby, I just tossed that jar and now use BurrFertz (my name for them) for micros.

 

[JacksonL]

I'm genuinely baffled that you guys are able to dose at/near 0.5ppm Fe/week.
I'm running with 75% weekly water changes and still I get horrible stunting/burning if I push my micros past 0.35ppm/week, with high macros (sitting around 25-7-35) and high light. And again, 75% WC. Also, 29-35ppm Ca and 5-7ppm Mg.

I'm getting hopeless, as I just still cannot get this Micros stuff figured out. It has felt like the last piece to this puzzle for me for the last 8 months and nothing I try gives me the results I want.

Currently, I aim for 0.35ppm/week with 75% WC. I divide that into 8 doses, where I do the 8th dose after WC for recovery.

At this routine, I still get twisted, knurled and burnt-red leaves on my AR Mini, Hygro corymbosa 'Compact', and my Ludwigia super red is also the most curled/stunted and dark red I've ever seen it. My Hygro siamensis '53B' literally has burnt red edges and leaves as they grow out.

Is it a light thing?? Does phytotoxicity happen for me because I run higher light than others?

I've now received info from a lot of amazing aquarists that they run their tanks at 0.5ppm Fe micros by proxy per week with 50% WC, but I literally cannot understand how that is possible. I know I'm not some noob who has no idea what he's doing, which makes it worse!

What type of iron are you dosing? At my low pH (5.6ish during lights) I assume a lot of my iron is gone by lights off. When I test, I generally get about 0.06-0.09 at the end of the week before a water change.
Only a bit over half of my iron is DTPA, there is a touch of EDTA, then the rest is gluconate which either gets used up or broken down.

 

[Naturescapes_Rocco]

What type of iron are you dosing? At my low pH (5.6ish during lights) I assume a lot of my iron is gone by lights off. When I test, I generally get about 0.06-0.09 at the end of the week before a water change.
Only a bit over half of my iron is DTPA, there is a touch of EDTA, then the rest is gluconate which either gets used up or broken down.

I'm currently using the Burr Micros, which has both DTPA and Gluconate forms of iron. I'm daily dosing, so there should always be some iron in the water no matter what, I'd wager.

What do you use for testing?

 

[JacksonL]

I'm currently using the Burr Micros, which has both DTPA and Gluconate forms of iron. I'm daily dosing, so there should always be some iron in the water no matter what, I'd wager.

What do you use for testing?

I test with the JBL kit. I’m not sure how much weight I put into the exact results, but I test it occasionally to check there is ‘some’ iron persistent in the tank and that it is not spiking.

 

[marekm]

this looks great! I like the idea to have the micros under 100% control as well as macros(which i am already dosing using dry salts).
However it seems that obtaining all the required salts seem to be a bit more complicated than the macros, some of them are not available in my country. I am wondering if somebody could share some "success stories", ie what did improve when switching to diy micros?
I am currently using the Yara Tenso cocktail, which contains most of the micro elements in chelated form:


I am experiencing a stunted growth for these plants:

• rotala wallichii
• staurogyne repens
• ammania(rotala) bonsai

my water parameters
kh 2 / gh 5 / co2 dialed in with a ph drop of 1.1 unit - ph of 5.9 during photo period.
i am dosing using dry salts for macros and the already mentioned yara tenso cocktail + seachem iron for fe gluconate

any input more than welcome !

 

[marekm]

So I have done some 'home-work' regarding the micronutrient solution I am using (YaraLite Tenso cocktail), I tried to compare the contents of different micro solutions. It is hard to compare without being a chemist, so I decided to compare each micro nutrient to iron, since thats used as a proxy. So for example Seachem Flourish contains 0.32% of Iron and 0.0118% of Manganese. So
0.0118 / 0.32 = 0.036875, so Iron : Manganese in Flourish is 100:3.6. Please feel free to correct me if there is a flaw in my logic, I am not a chemist and I am just playing with numbers. Also the numbers are just roughly accurate, some are rounded up, some are not(the <10 ones).


However if the results are correct, it is eye-opening to me. I am using Yara tenso cocktail for almost 2 years now, and for 2 years I am struggling with plant health issues. The first year(before using yara tenso) was wonderful, plants looked beautiful, everything was growing without any issues at all. After that first year I decided that Seachem Flourish is too expensive, started using the tenso cocktail and things went south, I never understood what was the issue, over the months/years i tried dialing in CO2 with a PH controller, I bought a 2 stage co2 regulator, replaced half of KNO3 with CaNO3&MgNO3 (because I believed that the issue might be Potassium toxicity), limited macro nutrients from ~30ppm NO3 weekly to ~10, running air pumps to improve gas exchange, adding a second canister filter to improve filtration and flow, and probably 10 other things I dont remember. It never occured to me that I could have micronutrient toxicity - probably because of the EI philosophy (at least the way I understood it) that you can never have too much nutrients.

Even by a quick AI search, this would EXACTLY describe my issues, even if its not for aquatic plants specifically:


The plants I have the biggest issues with:

• Rotala Bonsai
• Rotala Wallichii

these just dont grow in the tank no matter what, and they slowly perish.

Here is my tank in its 'prime' first year, before yara tenso cocktail:


I am trying to replicate this plant growth and health for 2 years now. The only other major thing that could be the cause is that I have used fresh aquasoil, which for sure makes a big difference, but I just refuse to rescape and invest $200+ each year for fresh aquasoil.

I have stopped dosing the Yara tenso cocktail and started dosing Seachem Flourish last week, I am very curious how will things improve.