Journal Sepp's Somehow Dutch

[Sepp0207]

Here are some pictures of interveinal chlorosis. A deficiency that accompanied me for many years. Manganese deficiency?

 

[Dennis Wong]

Did the plants recover after switching back to Masterline ?

 

[Sepp0207]

Hi Dennis.
Nice to hear from you. They did not recover. They went worse. The icp test mentioned before was after two weeks of nonchelated Mikros. Something like burrmix. I did also an icp test after the use of Masterline. The results were very similar. Also no Manganese left. As I mentioned in my first post I am struggling for almost 10 years now with this interveinal chlorosis no mater what dosing regime.

 

[Dennis Wong]

Hi Dennis.
Nice to hear from you. They did not recover. They went worse. The icp test mentioned before was after two weeks of nonchelated Mikros. Something like burrmix. I did also an icp test after the use of Masterline. The results were very similar. Also no Manganese left. As I mentioned in my first post I am struggling for almost 10 years now with this interveinal chlorosis no mater what dosing regime.

Hmm it seems very serious, so it piqued my curiosity.

4dKH seems a bit high for plants such as Pantanal? Did it grow well for you before?

Rotala Rotundifolia species are generally very resilient towards lean/lacking conditions. I find that its over-dosing that tends to create more growth issues for them than a lack of stuff (which takes a lonnngggg time to manifest). The easiest species are sometimes the best place to start diagnostics, because for example, in RR's case, you can easily rule out CO2 or macro issues as they are undemanding in both aspects.

Sensitive species are good for refining an already running regime, but make for poor candidates for diagnosing major issues (as they are sensitive to many things at once).

Many of the pics with deteriorating older growth I would categorize in the category of "relatively normal" but not optimal or great.
Pantanal and other stuff that do better with soft water can be put aside till later.
The reaction/issue with RR however, is a critical signal that can be worked on.

 

[Sepp0207]

4dKH comes from tap. I have tropica soil that is still eating kh. In the tank the kh is lower. Degased tank has ph 7.2 and with co2 i get 5.9. The plant you mentioned is meta. It is slowly recovering since i raised po4.
With macros, ca and mg I tested every possible variation. I am sure we can rule them out. Im my opinion there are only the Micros left. Beside the lack of manganese what do you think about the zn and cu levels? Could they harm sensitive plants like rotalas?

 

[Dennis Wong]

Hmm
I've never like discussing levels in isolation, that's why if someone search through all the texts I've written over the years, you will never see me write that say 10ppm NO3 is not as good as 15 or 20ppm NO3. It depends on the context, and all parts work together as a system.

Dense tanks in fast growth mode for example, can outgrow heavy trace or trace toxicity issues. And growth instability can expose issues with poorer construed ratios that work when everything else is humming along well.

Assuming the measurements are correct, I would think that Cu, Mo are a bit high relative to other traces and of course Mn should not be zero. However, this assumes the test is accurate - and even if it was, it is of a limited sample taken as a specific time. Hard to say how accurately it reflects tank conditions over a longer period of time. Residual water column nutrients do not always correlate closely to plant uptake, unless you have a lot more data/test results over a period of time.

 

[Sepp0207]

I found a big mistake in my sheet. Fe was tested at 0,3ppm and not 0,03ppm. Sorry for that.
I totaly agree with you. There is no need for a discussion about nutrition levels or ratios in general. Many tanks out there show that a huge variaty is working fine.
For me it is great benefit if experts like you help me just to rule things out. Thanks for that.
I have two possible reasons in mind for the lack of manganese:
1. Heavy biological Filtration. I had strong biological filter media running in two big canister filter. I am already working on that.
2. Tropica Soil. Maybe tropica soil is absorbing more manganese than other soils do. That could also be the reason why Tropica using so much manganes in relation to Fe in his fert routine.

 

[Dennis Wong]

I do think its more micros-related.

If that is Meta, its quite resistant to lean macro conditions. The overall plant size just decreases overall. I've grown it in <5ppm NO3, old aquasoil long term, it remains fully colored, perfect form, intact lower leaves, but around 1/3 to 1/4 the size of a full sized plant.

However, as I mentioned before, higher macros can allow plants to outgrow trace issues if its because of too heavy trace dosing.

 

[macek.g]

2. Tropica Soil. Maybe tropica soil is absorbing more manganese than other soils do. That could also be the reason why Tropica using so much manganes in relation to Fe in his fert routine.

Hi
Manganese is absorbed very quickly by plants, especially through the substrate.
If you use neutral gravel or sand, it will take longer to be detected by ICP and other photometric methods.
I recommend a thread from about 15 years ago on TPT (you might find it) about manganese and testing with soil and neutral substrates.

Ignore the Mn test result if it's available; plants will absorb it if there are no extreme antigonisms with other elements, such as Fe.

Well, regarding the appearance of the plants, and particularly the stunted growth tips, the problem is trace elements, specifically B. This is my opinion.
Regarding Pantanal, you have Tobi's thread on Aquasabi, which is many pages long.

Ludwigia inclinata var. verticillata "Pantanal"

Hallo! Bei den SE ist mir für Versuche eher die unchelatierte Variante über PMS, trotz Nichtdeklaration, interessanter. Da könnte es auch anderes, vielleicht Seachem, geben, was sich dann mit Fe,Mn ergänzen ließe. Das würde mich auch interessieren. Ich stelle mir meine Spurendüngung...

www.flowgrow.de

Or the thread on Barrreport Rotala Kill Tank, where there's also interesting content.

What would I do... dramatically reduce the potassium.
Potassium persists in water for quite a long time and is preferentially absorbed by plants. A few large water changes without K addition, then observe, especially if you have Hygrophilla plants. They should be the first to show deficiencies if any occur.

As for fertilizers, it's up to you. I've generally relied on DIY fertilizers for many years, but from time to time, out of curiosity, I try some ready-made AiO. But I've had negative experiences. Maybe negative is an exaggeration, I should have used... they didn't work for me.

A few years ago, when Dennis's website started selling fertilizers, I bought APT Complete with a dose of, as I recall, 5ml/100l, 3-4 times a week. I dosed 4ml. The results were noticeable after 2-3 weeks: stunted growth tips, BBA , and minimal short hairs. For years, I've had BBA when the tank has a higher Fe content, whether it's 0.1 or 0.3. BBA simply shows up when the Fe content is higher.
This consistency is like clockwork.
I abandoned it, switched to DIY, and everything returned to normal.
But I wouldn't be myself if I didn't try again. Three months ago, I bought APT 3 again, dosed 2 ml/100 liters daily, and the result... oh, the same, exactly the same result.
For many years, I had/have a tank with a very large plant population, including more difficult and rare species.

Therefore, each individual must tailor their fertilization to their tank.

Regards

 

[Sepp0207]

Thank you for your input @macek.g. I appreciate that.
I know that Pantanal thread on flowgrow and I also know the Rotala kill tank thread. They are legendary.
My aim is not to grow pantanal/meta in perfekt way. It is in the tank because it was available and I like it when it is healthy.
I aim for a more healthy plant growth in general. You can see that even very easy plants really struggle in my tank.
What do you mean with the Boron problems? Too much or too little low?
L

 

[Dennis Wong]

higher Fe causes BBA now? I guess there are special snowflakes everywhere

 

[Sepp0207]

I have a terrestrial plant with roots hanging in the tank. Even this plant is heavy struggling. Look at the new leaves.

 

[Sepp0207]

Hey guys,
here are some new pics of my tank. What I changed since my last update:

- Got rid of the heavy biological filter media for more stable manganese levels. Filter now is running with sponge 30 ppi.

- Installed a second carbon unit for eliminating all the copper from tapp.

- Stopped dosing copper and molybdenum for a while

- also reduced dosing boron and zinc a little bit

Actually I don’t see any improvement so far and I find it really difficult to read the plants reaction. Mostly affected are middle old leaves and older leaves. Many plants react with chlorosis.
We can rule out Co2, K, Po4 and No3. I have plenty of it and even tried to go higher with no improvements. The only other mobile nutrient I know is magnesium. But I have 10 ppm. That must be more than enough. Or could that be blocking problem? Like manganese blocking magnesium or something like that.
Interesting thing: I have a lot of Bucephalandra flowering like crazy since I raised po4, but the flowers do not open. The keep close and now start to get some little bba . Some even got loose.

 

[Sepp0207]

Wanted to add two more fotos. First one ist Ludwigia glandulosa. Do you see this darker shiny parts at the tipps of some leaves?
Second ist? Pogostemon Kimberly. It ist locking like that for more than a month. Ridiculous slow growth and heavy necrosis.

 

[Sepp0207]

Hey guys,
this are pictures of the bottom side from Samolus parviflorus red. I have lots of small dots there. Is this normal or could that be a sign of deficiency? Can someone show a picture from the bottom a healthy leave?

 

[lapshinmr]

The same thing I observed in previous icp analysis. Plenty of Fe and 0 Mn. Did someone observe something similar to that?

Hi! How is it going?

Have you considered changing calcium sulphate to calcium chloride? It looks like you have too many sulphates. 50 ppm is not so much, but 90 ppm is. In my tanks, I noticed that a high level of sulphates is worse with high potassium, especially if you have exhausted soil. Try to reduce sulphates to 30–40 ppm and increase chlorides to 35 ppm. It looks more balanced, and some plants like Bonsai and Alternanthera reineckii like that more. This is just my observation, not a scientific study.

You can go for it


Or if you afraid chlorides then choose more conservative approach




Also, have you tried root tabs? They can be helpful to refill old soil. Masterline tabs work pretty good.

 

[Sepp0207]

Hi! How is it going?

Have you considered changing calcium sulphate to calcium chloride? It looks like you have too many sulphates. 50 ppm is not so much, but 90 ppm is. In my tanks, I noticed that a high level of sulphates is worse with high potassium, especially if you have exhausted soil. Try to reduce sulphates to 30–40 ppm and increase chlorides to 35 ppm. It looks more balanced, and some plants like Bonsai and Alternanthera reineckii like that more. This is just my observation, not a scientific study.

You can go for it

View attachment 13537
Or if you afraid chlorides then choose more conservative approach

View attachment 13538


Also, have you tried root tabs? They can be helpful to refill old soil. Masterline tabs work pretty good.

This is a really interesting observation. Did I understand you right that high Sulfate with high potassium could be the problem? Can you describe the symptoms caused by by this? I would like to know more about your observations. There were many many things I already tried to fix my problems. But I never thought about Sulfate could cause any problems.

 

[lapshinmr]

I can even tell you a short story about my current tank. A year ago, I started my tank with DIY remineralization based on Ca/Mg sulphates. For 3 months everything went very well, but then I had problems with Alternanthera and Bonsai. Alternanthera grew very poorly and Bonsai grew very slowly. I tried to change dosing, GH level, potassium level, but with no success at all. Then I took a look at all my ions in the tank and noticed that I had too many sulphates. I started reading a lot of information about how to reduce sulphates and found that I could use chlorides. I knew about them but hadn't used them before because I had good tanks with sulphates before. But not in this case. So I tried to replace part of the sulphates with chlorides and it brought me luck with Alternanthera and Bonsai. They started to grow much better. Not ideal shape, but very good.

There is example how it was with Alternatera grew with sulphates only (Bonsai almost not grew at all. Just stayed for 3-4 months).



And Alternatera and Bonsai with sulphates and chlorides



Bonsai is not so good but it's growing. Also Staurogin repens and Helpheri didn't grow. I got rid of them.

Other plants — Didiplis Diandra, Rotala Rotundifolia Green/Orange Juice, Ludwigia Super Red, Eleocharis mini, and different kinds of Bucephalandras — grew with ideal shape on both remineralizer mixes.

Also, I noticed that when I used sulphates, dosing potassium was a big problem. When I switched to chlorides, I returned potassium and it works much better. I feel like plants want to eat more with chlorides.

I use something like semi-EI dosing: 10-15 ppm NO3, 3.5 ppm PO4, 10-15 K, 0.2-0.4 Fe micro.

My tank view when I took a good photo (don't pay attention to the Eleocharis yellow leaves. I hadn't replanted it for 6–7 months and decided to trim it).