Journal Quag's tank journal(s) - 45g + 120XH

[Quagulator]

Okay, so lets talk some more about plants / do some brainstorming here.

So my substrate is pool filter sand, and it's fairly large in it's grain size. I'm having a heck of a time with anaerobic pockets and gas / darker coloured algea?? bacteria?? growth under the substrate. Every water change I do a gravel vacuum across the entire area where there are no plants, and mix all the layers of sand together - the nasty coloured sand goes away within a few hours of being exposed to the lights / water. Where there are plants, I leave alone (assuming the plant roots can supply O2 into the root zone).

But... I think these pockets of anearobic growth is harming the plant roots. I'm just not seeing the growth out of these plants that I "should" be seeing.


Osmocote+ tabs every few weeks all throughout the plant island - 20 or so each time.

I was front loading the tank with 5ppm NO3, 5ppm PO4, 25ppm K, 5ppm Mg (lots of Ca in my tapwater).

After a 50% water change, the NO3 levels are 5-10ppm and after a few days 10-20ppm, I have not measured PO4.

pH - 8.0
dKH - 9
dGH - 11
Temp. - 84


My most recent change:

Front loading to 5ppm NO3, 5ppm PO4, 30ppm K and no additional Mg - I'll watch for results.

Added a 24" LED (Current USA Satellite Plus) over the plant island.

I am not dosing any micro's, or using any Glute.

I understand I am running lower light but I would expect to see a bit more growth than I am. 64 watts total RGB at 100% - 8 hours per day (now with the additional Current USA light).


More light?
Longer Photo period?
More O+ tabs?
Start micro dosing the water column?
Buy a CO2 system?
Lower the temp to 82?

Do a Chemiclean treatment to see if I can get rid of some cyanobacteria or other anaerobic bacteria?

Something else?

 

[Freshflora]

Okay, so lets talk some more about plants / do some brainstorming here.

So my substrate is pool filter sand, and it's fairly large in it's grain size. I'm having a heck of a time with anaerobic pockets and gas / darker coloured algea?? bacteria?? growth under the substrate. Every water change I do a gravel vacuum across the entire area where there are no plants, and mix all the layers of sand together - the nasty coloured sand goes away within a few hours of being exposed to the lights / water. Where there are plants, I leave alone (assuming the plant roots can supply O2 into the root zone).

But... I think these pockets of anearobic growth is harming the plant roots. I'm just not seeing the growth out of these plants that I "should" be seeing.


Osmocote+ tabs every few weeks all throughout the plant island - 20 or so each time.

I was front loading the tank with 5ppm NO3, 5ppm PO4, 25ppm K, 5ppm Mg (lots of Ca in my tapwater).

After a 50% water change, the NO3 levels are 5-10ppm and after a few days 10-20ppm, I have not measured PO4.

pH - 8.0
dKH - 9
dGH - 11
Temp. - 84


My most recent change:

Front loading to 5ppm NO3, 5ppm PO4, 30ppm K and no additional Mg - I'll watch for results.

Added a 24" LED (Current USA Satellite Plus) over the plant island.

I am not dosing any micro's, or using any Glute.

I understand I am running lower light but I would expect to see a bit more growth than I am. 64 watts total RGB at 100% - 8 hours per day (now with the additional Current USA light).


More light?
Longer Photo period?
More O+ tabs?
Start micro dosing the water column?
Buy a CO2 system?
Lower the temp to 82?

Do a Chemiclean treatment to see if I can get rid of some cyanobacteria or other anaerobic bacteria?

Something else?

I would definitely recommend starting to dose micros. I still get decent growth in my low tech tank that is a tap water, low light, low tech tank with only sand also. See how things respond for a week or 2 at least, and then you could lengthen your lighting period if you want. Sounds like a good amount of light already, so I wouldn’t think you need to increase the intensity. Another observation - that’s a crazy amount of PO4 for a low tech tank, it definitely doesn’t need more of that, I’m sure haha. Also a ton of K, no way it needs more and I doubt the 25ppm was an issue. One idea is for you to throw in a stem or two of a very fast growing stem plant for some more immediate feedback than the island plants will offer while you’re getting things figured out still.

 

[Quagulator]

Still considering mixing up some micro's and dosing them. Shouldn't hurt anything.

I'm also considering pulling all the plants and putting either a plain white gravel layer down where the plant island is (to illuminate any anaerobic pockets around the roots) or using some sort of base layer such as a calcined montmorillonite clay... however that would mix in with the white sand and I doubt I would like the look of it...

I've had great growth using this same method with gravel and with blasting sand, just not with the sand I am currently using - only difference being the anaerobic pocket I am noticing and the higher water temps.

 

[Art]

So my substrate is pool filter sand, and it's fairly large in it's grain size. I'm having a heck of a time with anaerobic pockets and gas / darker coloured algea?? bacteria?? growth under the substrate.

I've tried this before and experienced the same thing. My assessment was that it is just too fine and prevents proper water exchange between the water column and the substrate leading to anoxic conditions. No bueno.

I hope you have better luck than I did.

 

[Quagulator]

I've tried this before and experienced the same thing. My assessment was that it is just too fine and prevents proper water exchange between the water column and the substrate leading to anoxic conditions. No bueno.

I hope you have better luck than I did.

I'm leaning on the side of swapping out the sand for some white gravel where the plants are, and continuing on with having a light sand layer across the open areas of the tank. I don't mind cleaning the sand / disturbing it during each water change.

 

[Quagulator]

Found some white / lighter looking gravel.

Sometime this week I'll rip up the plants and move / remove the sand and replace with the gravel. A little sand will mix in to the gravel but that's okay. Hopefully I don't have to end up building a hardscape barrier to keep them from mixing too much.

I never disturb the substrate around the plants, so I should be okay.

 

[Quagulator]

After stirring on it for a few days, I decided to go ahead and just swap all the sand (all that I can get out anyway) for plain gravel.

This will allow me to fully gravel vac and completely eliminate all the anaerobic issues.

There are plenty of very attractive planted tanks out their with plain inert gravel.

I like the light colour to the sand I m using now, so I went ahead and bought a total of 75 lbs of gravel, this should be enough for a few inched where the plants are, and a light layer throughout the rest of the tank.


Now the fun part of setting an afternoon aside and figuring out the best way to get that sand out...

 

[gjcarew]

I'm using a coarse sand and haven't had any (noticeable) issues with anoxic areas.

Two factors I could see making the difference:
- Almost all my "floor space" is planted, which is probably inserting oxygen via plant roots
- I run it a lower temp, which means there is most likely more dissolved oxygen in the tank. That might prevent anaerobic pockets.

When I'm removing sand from a tank, I usually just vaccum it out at the same time as I do a water change into buckets. Sometimes I have to refill the tank halfway through removing all the sand, but that's just like an extra big water change. I'm sure your discus will love it!

Sorry to hear you're going through this. Sand does have a nice look to it, but I think the new gravel is going to look great as well!

 

[Quagulator]

Went ahead and made the switch - took about 2 hours start to finish including a 50% water change, it's amazing what I can get done when I'm not being bugged!

Tried using a siphon to suck out the sand into a tote, then allowing the tote to overflow leaving the sand behind, but that did not work at all.
I ended up just using a large net and scooping it out.


Then I simply dumped the rinsed gravel into the tank.

Re-planted it, finished the water change, and everything is going very well. No anaerobic substrate activity, no green algae as of yet, no diatoms. \

Small bacteria bloom in the water column caused some clouding, but it cleared itself in 48 hours. The plants have not melted, and seem to look a bit better to be honest... could just be my mind playing tricks, we shall see.

 

[Art]

Looks beautiful. Really. I love the island look with discus. Amazing.

I've done something similar in the past when I had discus. Mine didn't turn out so well. The discus are pooping machines so my white gravel was always spotted and looking dirty. After a while, the vacuuming just wasn't cutting it. I ultimately removed it and went bare bottom to help maintain the water quality.

I hope you have better luck than I did.

 

[Art]

Any update? How's the island filling in?

 

[Quagulator]

Any update? How's the island filling in?

Hi Art,

Once I made the transition to gravel, the plants melted back quite a bit, especially the apongeton (see the photo of how small is has become).

The plants are rebounding nicely now, but without high light and CO2 they are taking there time. Hair algae has gone from a bad brown outbreak to a bad green outbreak, but I am keeping on top of it.

Don't mind the algae on the gravel, today is water change day and the gravel gets cleaned up.

12 oto cats and an army of shrimp should help with algae - 9 of the oto's are still alive in the display tank, not too bad of a loss for them IME.

Shrimp are in the sump for now, letting them get larger before attempting some in the display.

 

[Count Krunk]

Tank looks great. The island look is great. Perhaps simply cont adding more plants of the species you already have to make it bigger faster?

 

[Art]

9 of the oto's are still alive in the display tank,

This has been my experience too with otos. What's going on with that? Why are they so sensitive?

Those look to be extremely healthy discus. Congrats. I failed miserably when I tried to keep them so you have my respect.

 

[Quagulator]

Tank looks great. The island look is great. Perhaps simply cont adding more plants of the species you already have to make it bigger faster?

Yep of course that would be the case. Only problem is I want to continue quarantining everything that goes into this tank, so I would have to rinse and keep the plants separate for a while which is fine... but I'm just being lazy. I also don't want to spend money, time and effort on plants if the ones in the tank are not doing so hot. They are growing well now, so I will likely pick up some more soon. Of course I could go with TC plants, but here in Canada they are anywhere from $15-$20 per cup and the mortality rate is very high....

This has been my experience too with otos. What's going on with that? Why are they so sensitive?

Those look to be extremely healthy discus. Congrats. I failed miserably when I tried to keep them so you have my respect.

Thank you very much. The algae is behind me (I hope).... I have since stopped spot treating and stopped daily dosing of Met14. Some of the plants did not appreciate spot treatments and high doses of Met14. I just inserted a lot of root tabs, so we will see if this sparks algae or not.


As for Oto's... they have been starved ever since being caught, transported, and kept at the fish stores, so they are very weak. They need a lot of algae and biofilm to stay strong enough to deal with all the stress, so many don't make it. They also set their own carrying capacity in the tank... so the tank can only produce so much algae and biofilm to keep so many alive... down to 8 now out of my 12, so 33% mortality rate... still not as bad as some batched I have bought.


I picked up 12 amano shrimp as well, but they are small so they are in a crusty old 10 gallon tank I had let go to build up a lot of algae -- I'll let them grow large enough to stay out of the discus' mouths before I transfer them into this tank. I still have a handful of adult orange neo shrimp in the sump... easy clean up crew for all the scraps that make it into the sump. Hopefully I can get a colony going strong enough to transfer a bunch into the display tank... if they live they live, if they get eaten, oh well. Oh, and I have 2 juvenile bamboo shrimp that love the high flow in the sump, they are growing very fast. Hopefully I can get them to stay in the display tank but... they love high flow and will probably always make the journey back into the sump.

Now it's just some light diatoms on the substrate that show up from days 5-7 throughout the week. A good gravel vac and it's clean until the 5th - 6th day. Still maintaining 50% total water volume water changes weekly. This week was the first since the tank was freshly set back up that I didn't have to wipe the inside glass down. Very lean front loading of NO3, PO4, K and Mg. Lots of Ca in my tapwater, no micro dosing and going heavy on my "custom" root tabs (50% O+ 50% Magnesium Ammonium Phosphate (AKA Struvite)).

 

[Art]

$15-$20 per cup and the mortality rate is very high....

don't get me started on tissue culture plants!

 

[Quagulator]

Been a while! I've been lurking around, but life gets busy!

Had a few up's and downs, but nothing got out of hand. Noticed some fish were showing signs of internal infections, suppressed appetites etc. which was strange as I had only been feeding freeze dried blackworms and some pellet food - the only thing I changed was the supplier I was using for the blackworms. So needless to say I stopped feeding those, medicated the tank (not fun with 130 gallons of water to treat) and made the switch to a bunch of different, parasite free foods that they are finally accepting. Lost 1 fish to this, but not the end of the world, everyone seems happy now (I am thinking of selling off a few that aren't showing full potential and replacing with better stock, we shall see).

In other news, I made finally made the switch from lean water column dosing + lots of tabs, to a more rich water column dosing schedule instead. Going with mainly tabs worked well, but man... you have to stay on top of them. As soon as the plants start to go hungry, ALGEA. A quick week of Met14 dosing, more tabs and a water change or two and the tank was back in good shape, but I got sick of making 24 tabs every couple weeks then spending the time placing them all. Currently front loading NO3-PO4-K @ 15ppm-5pm-20ppm. Micro's being does 3x weekly at a fairly lean rate, but I don't have a tank full of hungry stems to worry about. 50% weekly water changes (accounting for tank+sump volumes).

Added CO2 to the tank as well - running a dedicated pump in the sump's return section to feed a Griggs reactor which dumps back into the sump - maxed out my RMA151-SSV at 50cc's / min so I'll have to pick up an RMA150-SSV. Plants responded well of course. No idea of pH drop, but I'm likely way under where it needs to be.

 

[GreggZ]

Hey Quag good to see an update.

Those Discus look great. And they are well trained. How long did it take you to teach them to pose for the camera like that??

Very unique tank and must be a pleasure to observe in person.

 

[Quagulator]

Hey Quag good to see an update.

Those Discus look great. And they are well trained. How long did it take you to teach them to pose for the camera like that??

Very unique tank and must be a pleasure to observe in person.

Thanks Gregg!

Definitely hoping the CO2 and change of fert. routine will spruce up the plants. If all looks good, I'll look into adding 2x80W T5-HO to go along with the LED's - I already have the DIY kit with reflectors, just need to build a bracket or canopy for them. Probably run some 60" ATI Purple Plus bulbs if I can source them.

As for them posing, either I trained them very well to respond to my commands, or they are just used to being fed several times a day, so anytime anyone walks up to the tank, they all present themselves to the upper middle part of the tank where I drop the food in (note the feeding ring in the second pic I use to keep the food from getting pulled into the overflows).


PS I still have my tank of rainbows, no where near where it used to be, but still planted and the fish are starting to really colour up with some more size! The holiday season always sparks my motivation regarding my tanks. Updates to come when I can on that tank!

 

[GreggZ]

PS I still have my tank of rainbows, no where near where it used to be, but still planted and the fish are starting to really colour up with some more size! The holiday season always sparks my motivation regarding my tanks. Updates to come when I can on that tank!

Watching Rainbows grow and mature is one of the pleasures of the hobby. One day you glance at the tank and notice they have turned on the color to new level. Keeps going on for years too. They just get better and better.

Look forward to seeing what you come up with for that tank!