Journal 150g VIV Planted Discus Build Thread

[BryceM]

.... been reading lots of discus forums. For the most part, those folks are as psychoneurotic about their little world as we are about ours. Mixing CO2 and discus is a big no-no for most of them.

To hear them tell it, discus will tip over dead at the drop of a hat, need to be dosed by antibiotics eleven times a day, and force-fed 7 or 8 times a day to have any chance at all. They also spend at least 3 hours per day doing water changes. Tanks should be bare-bottomed, siphoned 30 seconds after feeding, and any problem at all indicates a hobbyist unwilling to "do what it takes" to care for their fish.

Maybe I'm in for a big surprise, but it seems to me like they're just really pretty, slightly fickle chichlids, perhaps over-bred to the point of weakness.....?? I know plenty of people who keep them and they're not geniuses.

I dunno. Guess we'll see.

 

[Mr.Shenanagins]

@BryceM you may want to check out George Farmers YouTube and see how his journey panned out with his CO2 injected discus tank. He unfortunately ended up rehoming them as their health appeared to be severely affected by the CO2.

 

[Unexpected]

That’s way too much work!

 

[BryceM]

So..... apart from the discus, the aquarium is now, more or less, fully stocked. There are 20-ish cardinals, 33 rummynose, 8 sterbai, and 8 congo tetras. I have a bunch of Amano shrimp and otos I might put in there if the algae gets too out of control, but they'd need to come back out before discus go in. As for the discus, I'm thinking 8-10 fish in the 3-4" range. I'm really hoping to source some F1 fish from wild parents. I'm not a fan of color morphs, and I'm attracted to the same natural beauty that endeared them to aquarists 100 years ago. I have an LFS in the region that seems to know what they're doing, and I'll see if I can pay them to QT them for a month or so before I pick them up. A month or two longer to get the new tank stuff figured out (algae) and I'll be in the market for those.

The cardinals are AMAZINGLY gorgeous against the green plants and dark backgrounds. The rummies and congos are pretty small, but they should also color up nicely when they grow out a bit.

There really aren't any plants in there that are terribly photo-demanding. Everything is growing (even the buces, a little). I can keep the light down and I'm thinking a pH drop of 0.6 to 0.7 is maybe the sweet spot here. Sort of..... medium-tech. If shrimp and delicate tetras can tolerate a 1.2 pH drop, even discus should be fine with 0.6.

I'm really mulling over the purchase of a PAR meter. With a 180g, 150g, and 46g tank, it seems like a decent long-term investment. I thought about renting one, but playing around with stuff is half the fun.

Also mulling over using a bit of a noon-burst technique. Maybe run the lights at 25% for 7 hours a day and 50-60% for an hour a day. Actual PAR data would be useful, as I'm hoping to have at least a half-decent chain sword midground carpet.

Also considering trying again with Hydor inline heaters. No matter how carefully I try to hide the in-tank units, I can still see them, and I don't really want to cause burns to lazy fish. They're also preventing the crypts from growing along the back like I want.

 

[BryceM]

So........

An update.

An exciting update:

This is not the best photo, taken from a video on the same day they arrived at the LFS...... but, there they are.

Next week I'll be able to pick them up. That gives me a few days to gradually bump up the temps and get everything ready. It also gives them a few days to chill, eat a bit, and make sure there's no issues.

These are Wild-caught Royal Red Beruri. About 3-3.5". Should color up nicely as they mature and settle in.

Wish me luck!

 

[BryceM]

In other news, an enormously kind person loaned me a PAR meter and I've been having a bit of fun with it. I'm running two Chihiros Vivid 2 LED lights, about 8.5 inches up from the surface. So, I have data, but that's only half of the problem.

First, as expected, I learned that these lights are WAY plenty bright enough!

With everything on at 100%, at the substrate, I'm getting 289 micromoles (?). That's a ton in anyone's book.

For the last couple of months, I have been running on the Chihiros "Buce" scheme, which seems to be a good compromise between a nice look and emphasizing photosynthesis. As a random starting point, for 7 hours per day I've been running at 33% of the full Buce spectrum and that gives me 50 at the substrate, 41 in the nethermost corner. Still a whopping 157 at the surface, just under the lights. For one hour in the middle of the photoperiod I've been running a 66% "noon burst" which gives me 138 at the substrate. Probably that's more than I need for this mess of crypts, anubias, lagenandras, etc, and I think I'll back it off to 50%. All of this is based on random opinions I've found on-line.

After all of this, I'm more likely to have too much light than too little, it seems, even with these lights throttled WAY back.

 

[BryceM]

So, we had a big snowstorm hit us here today. Fortunately, I was able to drive down yesterday and pick up these little beauties. I'm about half-nervous to share all of this, as I really don't want to screw it up...... We'll see how they do. I turned off the CO2 well ahead of time and turned on the airstone. Once I finally got home, I dimmed the lights way down low, did a slow-drip acclimation over a couple of hours, and had an airstone running.

As they went in, they seemed pretty chill, looking around and not hiding much at all. Today they approach the top when I get close, looking for food, but they're only mouthing it so far. Mostly, I think that's a good sign. The only thing they're actually eating (a very little bit) is flake food that I put in for the tetras. I'm not too worried, but we'll see how they look in a few days. The color today is 10x better than when they first got plopped in.



Today I ran enough CO2 to drop the pH 0.5. They didn't seem to notice. We'll try a bit lower over the next few days.

I tried to attach a video here. Hopefully y'all can see it. There's tons of stuff out there on how any nitrates at all are lethal to discus, how CO2 will instantly kill them. Most discus people would slap the KNO3 out of my hand, I'm sure. Maybe I'm looking for trouble. If so, I can always go all the way low-tech with these. For this tank, the fish are the priority, but they ALWAYS look better in a planted setup.

 

[Art]

To hear them tell it, discus will tip over dead at the drop of a hat, need to be dosed by antibiotics eleven times a day, and force-fed 7 or 8 times a day to have any chance at all. They also spend at least 3 hours per day doing water changes. Tanks should be bare-bottomed, siphoned 30 seconds after feeding, and any problem at all indicates a hobbyist unwilling to "do what it takes" to care for their fish.

Reminds me of some planted aquarium forums back in the day.

My experience with discus is that they are initially sensitive, especially if you buy them from non-breeder. Once they get settled in, I found them to be demanding but not overly sensitive. What really bothers them is constant fluctuations. So my recommendation would be to get things are steady as possible and keep it there.

Of course, I’m far from a discus expert.

 

[Art]

Congrats! They look beautiful and quite relaxed. Very good sign.

Heckles?

 

[FrankZ]

Stunning fish! I can’t wait to see them once they are fully settled in and under full light.

 

[BryceM]

They were described to me as Beruri Royal Red wild-caught discus. I took a bit of a leap of faith here, relying on the supplier of an LFS that specializes in discus and altum angels. I know they were shipped in from Texas. The LFS was nice enough to hold them for a while - sort of a quarantine in exile. I've seen "Heckel" used to describe various things..... In some books, wild red discus are generally considered as Heckels, IIRC.

They're three days in now, VERY relaxed. Coming to the top when I approach the tank, and finally eating frozen brine out of my fingers (like little pigs - a few of them). They won't take anything in pellet form yet though. I'm trying Aqueon chiclid pellets, Hikari Vibra-Bites, and they actually seem to like good old Tetra Min Color flakes.

They're really coloring up now, and I'm encouraged. All 10 are up and active, exploring, and actually starting to tussle a bit for territory. Seems good so far. Here's what I've been doing with the temps and pH:

 

[BryceM]

So, right now about a 0.6 pH drop and temps ranging from 82.0 to 82.5. The plants would like lower, the discus higher, so this temp seems like a reasonable compromise.

As for the discus, I wanted to locate some F1's from wild fish, but that proved to be a little difficult to find. After talking with the guys at the LFS, I decided to go with these wild fish. They're size-matched reasonably well, and hopefully they'll fit the bill. I'll break out the DLSR and try to get some better photos today.

Eventually I'll probably aim for about a 0.7 pH drop. That should suit the plants, the low light, and the fish. We'll see.

 

[BryceM]

Here are a couple photos from tonight. I'm a little rusty on DSLR aquarium photography. It's been a few years.

Color-wise, this is much more true to how they look in actuality. Sooooo much better than the drab brown things in my first photos.

 

[Art]

I'm really excited for you, Bryce. The pH drop and temp seem reasonable. Again, I think stability is going to be most important for you.

In my tank, algae seemed a constant issue. Mostly GDA. I think because of feedings. When they do start to eat, you will see they are ravenous. That much input was hard to manage and I didn't want to do daily water changes.

One thing that helped was introducing plecos and corydoras. They kept the algae in check.

 

[BryceM]

Almost 2 weeks in now. All 10 are doing well. 6 are voracious pigs. 2 eat a modest amount. 2 eat only a little. They're starting to act like chichlids, at least some of the time. They all school nicely together about 2/3 of the time and the other 1/3 they spend sparring with each other and defending territory. Most of them eat out of my fingers, which is pretty fun. They remind me in many ways of angelfish. Very smart. They certainly recognize people and situations.

The plants are doing OK. Growth is slow except for the swords. Those things are stupid weeds! Water clarity is excellent, which is a huge plus. As to the amount of feeding, yeah, it's on the heavy side. Like Art said, that might bear evil fruit in the form of algae. We'll see. The slow-growers in the middle of the tank probably get too much light and they're showing some patina on older leaves. Mixed green stuff. No BBA , no BGA. The diatoms are almost completely gone now. A little green dust on the glass, but not too terrible. The chain swords are slooooowly filling in, but an actual carpet or hedge is going to take a while.

I'll post some whole-tank photos when I get a minute. I didn't estimate the growth rates of everything correctly and it will take some re-arranging at some point.

 

[BryceM]

 

[BryceM]

A little update. So far, I'm really enjoying these fish! I've heard all sorts of stories about how skittish discus are, etc., etc.

These guys ZOOM to the surface when it's time to eat, and generally they eat out of my hand. Visitors don't seem to bother them a bit. Perhaps a bit of hardscape and a good number of dither fish make them feel more comfortable. I dunno. It's pretty fun.

I'm getting just a bit of BBA on the wood and some darker green stuff on the older anubias leaves. I suspect the heavy feeding and relatively light plant mass isn't helping. I'll tolerate a little algae, but too much and something will have to change. It's still a relatively new tank, so I'm hoping it will improve. Discus do seem to actually graze on the algae, as has been reported.

 

[BryceM]

Been a while!

Well, the fish are growing, a bit. The congos have gone from juvies to full-fledged adults with stunning colors. Not a single rummy or cory has died. Amazing, if you ask me. A couple of cardinals have gone belly-up.

As for the plants..... well, let's just say it isn't all peaches and cream. Admittedly, this setup is more about the fish than the plants, but, still, algae issues are a PITA. The high temps are definately making it harder. Well, that and my desire to not crank up the CO2 too much. It's only 0.7 lower than off-gassed water. Lights are pretty low intensity (even lower now), but still I'm dealing with BBA , and lots of scuzzy junk on the slow-growers. Even a bit of BGA.

The discus are between juvie and adult size, so I've been feeding pretty heavily. No huge surprise that it's a bit of a struggle. I did lower the CO2 another 0.05 pH. Much more, and I'm not sure the discus will like it. The swords are doing well. The crypts not so much, which is a bit of a surprise. Anubias are even pretty slow, even by their standards.

I'll probably start checking some water parameters soon. I don't test too much, but it might tell me something. When I do the math, I'll share my current dosing regimen here. Honestly, with light this low, I can't imagine anything is dreadfully low.

 

[Quagulator]

Looking good. For what it's worth, I also am continuing to struggle with algae. I have it narrowed down to higher temps + heavy feeding = algae essentially no matter what we do.

Good plant nutrition, consistent CO2, large water changes, smaller photo period (not low intensity, but a shorter period) and using Met14 / Excel if needed is working will with me. Every 3-4 weeks I'll do a heavy daily dose of Met14 for 3-4 days = stops algae in it's tracks for the next 3-4 weeks, repeat as needed.

What are you feeding the discus?

 

[BryceM]

For feeding I’m mixing it up a bit. Frozen food, mostly. I alternate between a discus mix, brine shrimp, shredded frozen salmon from our Alaska adventures (which they absolutely devour) and occasional bloodworms. I’ve tried some small pellets (which some of them will eat), Vibra-bites, which none of the discus actually eat, and good old tetra flakes, which they actually eat quite willingly. I’m fixing to add some beef heart, but we’ll see. I’m also considering making my own concoction using the salmon, beef heard, and some spirulina. They seem to prefer eating out my fingers over anything else, so I suppose they were fed that way before they showed up here.

What is this Met14 of which you speak? Basically another gluteraldehyde? I’ll do some research.