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Journal Ryan's 4820 something Journal

Went with a 5/32" bit tonight and bored out all 30 holes on the spray bar tonight (thank you for the help @Immortal1)
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Noticeable difference for sure, helped a lot but still some stuff getting buffeted around. Probably going up across all 30 again tomorrow by another 1/32"; if it's still not the effect I'm looking for after that, maybe add 3 holes to the back angled down as well, evenly spaced across the whole bar.

Looks like I'll need to do some trimming of old growth and more gda leaf scrubbing as well tomorrow, and get some more tests on the water colum to gauge how quick I'm going through nutrients and exactly how much the PO4 adsorption has slowed down.

From the maintenance session the other day to clean up the massive gda bloom (thoroughly enjoyed turning my dining room into a workshop for the day):
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Can't stress enough how important thinking things out is. I redid my entire water change system while I was preparing for this tank and I really put alot into it. I hooked up a 20ft long garden hose with basically a ball valve on the output end; the other end is just screwed into the cold water out from washer hookup (after a y-splitter which also splits to the RO unit's source line)

The thought was, initially flooding the tank to start the dark cycling process would be done with tap. No use making RO for that. More importantly, for heavy maintenance or uprooting sessions, which hopefully are rare because that's alot of upset all at once for anyone's ecosystem, having that hose feed tap into the tank while siphoning out at a roughly equal rate is enormously helpful.

I did this after scraping all the algae off the glass, giving the sub a heavy vacuum, and individually toothbrush scrubbing algae off leaves. It went from 830am until 630pm. I was then able to do what I'm super roughly estimating at a 4-500% water change to clear out all the algae left floating in the water column after scrubbing. The results have been great so far, and today a little is starting to come back. Maybe switching to 2x wc a week to be on the safe side and get the rest of this algae outbreak gone.

My thoughts on what caused the algae bloom in the first place:
Bear with me here. Sure it could absolutely be normal startup stuff. However...
I know (from second hand experience, as this is my first time messing with getting N from urea) that dosing urea is generally best done on a system with a mature biofilter. My guess is that I may have jumped the gun; when my nitrates bottomed out a couple weeks back, I knew I had to start dosing some kind of N. What's the harm, I thought to myself, it's cycled, it'll handle a measly 360mg dose per day.

I'm hypothesizing that jumping the gun on urea dosing was a catalyst for algae already present (as algae always is) to temporarily win the fight for nutrients against my plant mass. But, I have some evidence to lend support to this idea.

I was away for a couple days when the tank got worse with gda (aint that always the way lol) and my brother was keeping me updated with pics. I tested when I got home to confirm my own suspicions: ahh, higher NH4 than when I left. Around 0.5ppm. If you look back on the log of testing I've been doing every couple days, I've sat at 0.25ppm for awhile, and I've had lights and co2 at the same level since the tank was planted, and pretty much had no algae with only very, very minor melt.

So this tells me something may have bumped ammonia up a little bit, possibly urea. Now with the bump up in ammonia came an uncorrelated NO3 reading: 0ppm, or at least an undetectable amount from the test. So what does that tell me? Well, in my mind, that seems like the cycle took a slight bump from raised NH4 suddenly and, being a fragile and new biofilter, stalled out a little bit. Otherwise, I'd have that NH4 being converted into NO3 well within a 24hr period. The absence of that tells me the cycle took a little bump and stalled and floundered a little bit, although it doesn't seem like anything permanent.

How I would love to know if I would've continued algae free if I'd skipped on urea and instead opted to start dosing N from KNO3 instead; but that's not for me to know 🤷‍♂️ the end result is that now I'll be scrubbing gda for a little bit, and my substrate is green. Oh well.
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Things looking a lot better with some cleaning :)

If you catch it in that pic, did some bulb rearranging with help from @Burr740 @GreggZ and Ted K, who've all been giving me good feedback on how different brands and spectrums will work together, and lending a critically more experienced eye to things for someone who's running this sort of fixture for the first time. The new combo, front to back:
- Giesemann Superflora
- Giesemann Tropic
- PowerVeg 660nm
- AgroMax 3000K
- PowerVeg 420nm
- Giesemann Purple
In the pic below I have the channel running the Tropic and 3000K turned down about 10% lower than the rest, I upped them a little since then but it's a very subtle difference. I like this rendition alot better than what the previous combo gave me:
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Random notes:
- Hopefully the garra start munching on some substrate algae when they come, you can still see what's on the substrate if you look close enough in this pic and it's pretty brutal.
- S. repens has taken the biggest hit out of all of the plants with the ammonia spike strangely enough
- Switched to KNO3 for N on my last waterchange
- If I'm still doing 2x week or more frequent wc on my tank come tuesday I will have to make sure I'm careful, I killed two otos the other day not thinking about the fact that running from my coldwater tap change >100% meant that my water was going into the tank ice cold, not heated from the RO reservoirs
- I have a syngonanthus sp in here that I got from an unnamed hobbyist without an ID, I've never kept uaupes (sp?) but it looks similar. Same leaf structure as macrocaulon but different plant. There's also a group of erio in there (peeking out behind the bigger iguazu) that I do not know.
- Do alot of these groups look dead and ugly? Yes! But--look at all that new growth!!😍 most noticeable on the tulu tops. Game plan here is to try to push these as far as they'll go as far as new growth that's adjusted to this tank, and then it'll be a vicious session of ripping out old, unadjusted growth, to start everything over as close to 100% adjusted for this tank's parameters.

Coming this Tuesday:
- 4x Herbertaxelrodi (2 pair)
- 4x M. Boesemani (2 pair)
- 4x M. Trifasciata 'Goyder River' (mixed sex)
- 4x M. Mairasi, finally
- 3x Garra flavatra
Sweet update! Do you have a QT tank they’re going into or are you just planning on putting them straight in the tank? That’s quite a lot of fish to be adding to a newly established tank all at the same time IMO, especially considering your tank is still measuring some ammonia and having some nuisance algae issues.
 
Sweet update! Do you have a QT tank they’re going into or are you just planning on putting them straight in the tank? That’s quite a lot of fish to be adding to a newly established tank all at the same time IMO, especially considering your tank is still measuring some ammonia and having some nuisance algae issues.
It probably was 😅 they've been bopping around in there for awhile now though and all looks well. Well, besides those crazy nuisance algae issues 😱

Fun fact, I actually do not have a quarantine tank. I've been meaning to throw one together in the downstairs closet with basically a 5gal bucket or tote and a sponge filter, but need to make room first lol.
 
If anyone's wondering where the updates have been, I'm overdue for a big one, but I'm going to drop some pics of the algae(?) battle I've been having.

Thought it was hair algae but doubting that heavily now, impossible to manually remove it but I remove most of it and it's fully regrown and worse than ever within two days.

Presents on the sub like a gda-like slime, and on plants as either the same slime or those long flowing hairs you can see in some of the pics.

Coloration varies a little as you can tell from a light green, to a dark brownish green, to a blue green.

Doesn't seem to be affecting the growth of plants for the most part. I posted on CO2 Supplemented and a surprising number of people responded with absolute conviction that this is all cyano (which I never knew could look like this) and when I water changed I can almost believe it...doesn't really behave or feel like any algae, it's a heavy slime that physically sticks to plants and hands alike, as in it is slimy consistency but also has a sticky texture. No distinct smell that I can tell.

From Saturdays water change moving forward, I'll now be going from one 80% wc a week to two 80% wc a week.

No significant changes in CO2, lighting intensity or photoperiod duration, or dosing. Front load macros at 20/8/30, end the week around 5/1/15

I'll be upping dosing to 30/8/30 or 30/12/30.

I did some H2O2 spot dosing post water change Saturday and it had little to no effect. Went with the cyano assumption (at least parts of the problem in-between sub and glass look like I expected cyano to) and dosed enough chemiclean for 70 gallons of water. Haven't seen any change in anything yet. That was also post water change on Saturday.

Next water change is tomorrow, then another one on Friday; just checking to see if anyone's experienced this same thing before, thoughts on if all this stuff present could be cyano, and any other thoughts or recommendations on how to continue to combat. Manual removal is difficult to the point that I took a full day off work Saturday and still only had time to mostly fully remove it from the right half of the tank...it's incredibly, incredibly labor and time intensive and not possible to get 100% of it out.

Curious to hear thoughts on what this looks like to everyone


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Well if it is Cyano, a few doses of erythromycin will get rid of it. Looking at the pics it looks kinda fuzzy and light green which usually isn't the way BGA presents from my experience

What is your light cycle? Did you do anything recently to disturb the substrate?
 
Well if it is Cyano, a few doses of erythromycin will get rid of it. Looking at the pics it looks kinda fuzzy and light green which usually isn't the way BGA presents from my experience

What is your light cycle? Did you do anything recently to disturb the substrate?
Agreed. Any detectible ammonia?
 
Interesting @ryancamaratta - your written description sounds a lot like the algae I have been dealing with for a long time "manually removed from plants, but it's fully regrown and worse than ever within two days" "Presents on the plants like gda-like slime"
But, your pics look almost nothing like what I have. Mine does not seem to effect my Eco Complete substrate (no active). Your 2nd to last pic (closeup of substrate) seems to have the typical blue-green color of BGA. Wondering if you have a combination of BGA and GDA working together with some type of hair algae. I am no expert, but I would think a single tank could support more than one type of algae.
I have had good luck in the past with erythromycin in dealing with BGA. In my case, the slime on the leaves and glass changed from "a light green, to a dark brownish green, to a blue green" to basically a light lime green (I assumed this meant I killed most of the BGA leaving behind whatever else I have in the tank.

It is possible, you may have to attack your situation individually. Treat for one type and see if there is a noticeable difference.
Like Gregg stated - do you have any ammonia issues? If no, do you have a good test for NO3 (like Salifert?). It is possible you have way too much NO3 which is feeding the various algae.

Sure would be nice if there was 1 universal chemical to pour in your tank which would kill ALL algae but not the fish or plants. (PBITAWA) :)
 
What is your light cycle? Did you do anything recently to disturb the substrate?
1-8, half hour ramp up inside that range, nothing too wild.
Agreed. Any detectible ammonia?
No detectable ammonia with salifert or API tests
It is possible you have way too much NO3 which is feeding the various algae.
Rocking the salifert NO3 tests, I've found the opposite actually. I will probably bump NO3 up, as two weeks straight I came close to bottoming out N (read 1-5ppm on the test basically)

Some of what I was reading seems to indicate bottomed out or limited nitrates (which is definitely not the route I'm intending to go with this tank) could be a cyano breeding ground.

@Immortal1 I think you're most likely right about multiple types, there very well could be some gda left over from the short ammonia spike a few weeks ago. It was fading away to non existence when the sticky, slimy, possible cyano started up (no other changes to the tank)

I'm addressing any possible causes of the cyano by upping wc frequency to 80% 2x week, I'm adding two oase skim 350s to either corner of the back of the tank, and I've moved my two inlets from the extreme back left and right corners inwards a little bit, probably 3-4 inches closer to center, so the final layout along the back will be:
Skim/intake/spraybar/intake/skim

That's just to maximize flow and oxygenation in what's basically the most likely area for low flow or oxygen in this setup.

I'm definitely going to try the erythromycin if I don't have results with the chemiclean, I'm water changing tomorrow again (48hrs after initial chemiclean dose) and I'm going to be redosing the chemiclean after that wc on Tuesday. Says it's usually 48hrs minimum to see any effect; haven't seen anything yet so I'm hoping for some improvement between tonight and tomorrow morning.

I'm really not a big believer of additives to kill algae :( but I believe cyano is something that usually needs a little bit of a helping hand to get going at least initially. I also tried API algaefix just to test out if any of this was hair algae...the product was originally recommended to me by Raj a long time ago specifically for hair algae, and if someone like Raj says something I usually listen to it. It immediately eradicated a small hair algae outbreak for me in a different tank, but in this tank has had absolutely no noticeable effect. Does that rule out that some of this is hair algae? I doubt it, but it's noteworthy.

@GreggZ , I'm also stumped about the presence of any of this in the absence of any ammonia, but I've tested and re tested for it and haven't come up with anything.


Sure would be nice if there was 1 universal chemical to pour in your tank which would kill ALL algae but not the fish or plants. (PBITAWA)
Time to take a leaf out of Casey's and Winston's books, PBITAWA 🍻😂
 
Looking at the pics it looks kinda fuzzy and light green which usually isn't the way BGA presents from my experience
Same honestly 🤷 I'm going off others' experience with that one, I've never dealt with cyano myself before. I was googling some pics of freshwater cyano though and there's definitely a few that show it that way, less common than the stereotypical blue green slime mat pics...not too sure, you know what the quality of a lot of info out there is like lol. Even worse when it comes to algae ID and potential causes.
 
Same honestly 🤷 I'm going off others' experience with that one, I've never dealt with cyano myself before. I was googling some pics of freshwater cyano though and there's definitely a few that show it that way, less common than the stereotypical blue green slime mat pics...not too sure, you know what the quality of a lot of info out there is like lol. Even worse when it comes to algae ID and potential causes.

Well the cyano is usually pretty easy to get rid of and doesn't really discriminate as it will grow on anything in the tank. The Erythro or any of those other products usually takes care of it quickly.

I don't believe you need to see measurable ammonia with a test kit. I mean this is a microorganism. You don't see the spores, but they're there, lurking and waiting for their moment. There is some debate that elevated levels of N/P can keep them going once you see it in your tank, but that's probably another discussion.

BTW do you have Mini Pellia in your tank? That stuff on the Buce almost looks like that, but might just be the pic.
 
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Well the cyano is usually pretty easy to get rid of and doesn't really discriminate as it will grow on anything in the tank. The Erythro or any of those other products usually takes care of it quickly.

I don't believe you need to see measurable ammonia with a test kit. I mean this is a microorganism. You don't see the spores, but they're there, lurking and waiting for their moment. There is some debate that elevated levels of N/P can keep them going once you see it in your tank, but that's probably another discussion.

BTW do you have Mini Pellia in your tank? That stuff on the Buce almost looks like that, but might just be the pic.
That's true yeah. I'm pretty happy with it being cyano to be honest, how rare is it that we can dump something in our tanks to have a problem eliminated?

Seems to be debate on how people approach the chemiclean/ultra life dosing too, the instructions say to do a 20% water change 48 hours after dosing. I'm doubling up on wc til this clears up like I said so I'm just doing the full 80% tomorrow.

Someone suggested leaving it in a week in-between doses but I can't see letting a high energy tank, even a freshly setup one where the light isn't nearly as strong as where it will end up, go for a while without a significant water change.

Going to dose a second round of the chemiclean tomorrow after the 80% water change and more manual removal and I'll update.

Also about the pellia, that's a negative. That is old and dying bba that was on the buce from its last home that needs to be trimmed off eventually
 
+1 vote for mostly cyano along with some algae sprinkled in. I've dealt with cyano in the past when using soil substrates, especially aquasoil types. If I remember correctly, I'd first kill off a lot of the bulk by hitting it with the first punch (h202) of the one-two punch, following that method of circulating the h202 through the whole tank. Then I'd follow that with a treatment of erythromycin.
 
That's true yeah. I'm pretty happy with it being cyano to be honest, how rare is it that we can dump something in our tanks to have a problem eliminated?

Seems to be debate on how people approach the chemiclean/ultra life dosing too, the instructions say to do a 20% water change 48 hours after dosing. I'm doubling up on wc til this clears up like I said so I'm just doing the full 80% tomorrow.

Someone suggested leaving it in a week in-between doses but I can't see letting a high energy tank, even a freshly setup one where the light isn't nearly as strong as where it will end up, go for a while without a significant water change.

Going to dose a second round of the chemiclean tomorrow after the 80% water change and more manual removal and I'll update.

Also about the pellia, that's a negative. That is old and dying bba that was on the buce from its last home that needs to be trimmed off eventually

Never used the chemiclean only the Erytho. I used the API tablets that you would use on fish. One tablet per 10G and than repeat that the next day and that usually took care of it. After second tablet big water change.

OK BBA makes sense, reason I asked is I had some Buce leaves close to the substrate and some Pellia attached itself to the edges so the pic looked like that.
 
+1 vote for mostly cyano along with some algae sprinkled in. I've dealt with cyano in the past when using soil substrates, especially aquasoil types. If I remember correctly, I'd first kill off a lot of the bulk by hitting it with the first punch (h202) of the one-two punch, following that method of circulating the h202 through the whole tank. Then I'd follow that with a treatment of erythromycin.
Thanks for weighing in, all the info as far as what kind of algae etc is suspected helps, doubly useful right now as it's something I haven't dealt with til now.

Never used the chemiclean only the Erytho. I used the API tablets that you would use on fish. One tablet per 10G and than repeat that the next day and that usually took care of it. After second tablet big water change.

OK BBA makes sense, reason I asked is I had some Buce leaves close to the substrate and some Pellia attached itself to the edges so the pic looked like that.
The api tablets dissolve or you were crushing them up? It's something I'm going to look into depending on how the chemiclean treatment goes.

And that sounds like it would be a cool look when it's not dead algae making it look that way 😂
 
The api tablets dissolve or you were crushing them up? It's something I'm going to look into depending on how the chemiclean treatment goes.

And that sounds like it would be a cool look when it's not dead algae making it look that way 😂

Actually I shouldn’t have said tablets (though they might come in that form) they are actually powder packets and yes dissolve easily in a cup of water before dumping in.

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One tablet per 10G and than repeat that the next day and that usually took care of it. After second tablet big water change.
Worked for you without doing what the box says? Side of the box says do what you did, but instead of a big water change, you do 25% 24hrs later.

Then treat a second time (packet per 10gal, same thing next day, wait 24hrs, 25% water change)

I like your idea better 🤷 is waiting a day after the second dose to wc cool or did you wc the day after your second dose? If you remember.

My plan is 7 packets for 70gal today, 7 packets for 70gal tomorrow, nothing Thursday, then big (normal 75-80%) wc on Friday.

Thanks for the tip on all this, chemiclean didn't do much, at least one initial dose didn't
 
Worked for you without doing what the box says? Side of the box says do what you did, but instead of a big water change, you do 25% 24hrs later.

Then treat a second time (packet per 10gal, same thing next day, wait 24hrs, 25% water change)

I like your idea better 🤷 is waiting a day after the second dose to wc cool or did you wc the day after your second dose? If you remember.

My plan is 7 packets for 70gal today, 7 packets for 70gal tomorrow, nothing Thursday, then big (normal 75-80%) wc on Friday.

Thanks for the tip on all this, chemiclean didn't do much, at least one initial dose didn't

Yep, did the one dose, waited 24 hours and did a second dose and then 24 hours later did my usual 50% WC. It completely wiped it out. You could probably do a somewhat smaller water change to keep it more concentrated, but I never needed to do that. The box directions is for fish disease so I think you have some leeway here. Also, never saw any issue with livestock or plants after treatment. Good luck!
 

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