Dosing suggestions for a new tank with APT FEAST

[Joel Armstrong]

To begin a tank with APT Feast, I see a lot of people dosing lean to begin with, as in adding a small amount of ferts each day, with the thought of the soil will provide almost all of what the plants need.

Are there others who dose more heavily to start with?

How different, or perhaps the same, do people dose a tank with fresh soil as compared to an inert substrate?

Also, I understand P04 binds to clay soil, especially when new. So there's possibly a need to dose extra P for a while. How much P and how often? Do P04 test kits help with this?

 

[Naturescapes_Rocco]

These are all good questions and I hope someone else answers. The fact that these questions exist are, in part, of what is pushing me away from aquasoils, to inert sand tanks.

To begin a tank with APT Feast, I see a lot of people dosing lean to begin with, as in adding a small amount of ferts each day, with the thought of the soil will provide almost all of what the plants need.

This is pretty common in ADA setups and overseas. It's also how I used to start every aquasoil tank I've ever had; essentially APT 1 for the first 2-3 months, then slowly try to introduce APT 3 or DIY EI dosing. The transition periods are always difficult and I found it easier to just switch from lean dosing to heavy dosing, deal with the algae, and care for the tank until it stabilizes. I did a lot of lean fert in my Version 1 tank, and also started my Version 2 tank the same way.

How different, or perhaps the same, do people dose a tank with fresh soil as compared to an inert substrate?

Technically, if you have large enough weekly water changes, you can dose an aquasoil tank the same as you would an inert substrate tank. The soil just provides direct nutrients to the roots, out of the water column.

Also, I understand P04 binds to clay soil, especially when new. So there's possibly a need to dose extra P for a while. How much P and how often? Do P04 test kits help with this?

This is one of the most frustrating parts of using aquasoil, IMO. There's just no way to know if the soil has fully bound all the P it can hold, or if the plants are taking it up, or what. I hope someone else chimes in on this!!

 

[techman81]

To begin a tank with APT Feast, I see a lot of people dosing lean to begin with, as in adding a small amount of ferts each day, with the thought of the soil will provide almost all of what the plants need.

This is pretty common in ADA setups and overseas. It's also how I used to start every aquasoil tank I've ever had; essentially APT 1 for the first 2-3 months, then slowly try to introduce APT 3 or DIY EI dosing. The transition periods are always difficult and I found it easier to just switch from lean dosing to heavy dosing, deal with the algae, and care for the tank until it stabilizes. I did a lot of lean fert in my Version 1 tank, and also started my Version 2 tank the same way.

I'm still studying and learning from all those here with vastly more knowledge and experience, but this is essentially what I did with my first scape. I monitored my nitrates and started exclusively dosing APT 1. As I began seeing nitrates drop off, I brought APT 3 into the picture. I was dosing daily so I would dose APT 3 Sun, Wed, Fri and APT 1 the other days. Gradually I moved to dosing APT 3 everyday. It's lazy compared to what some others here do and honestly, you can see the difference in their plant health vs mine, but my tanks still look good and I'm happy with them for now. Eventually, as I get more knowledgeable and comfortable with the science and math, I'll start dosing more precise macros and micros based on the needs of each tank. I also plan to try an inert substrate tank like Rocco's in the near future.

 

[Sb1415]

You could ask @Dennis Wong, usually responds. I have asked him about this either in Reddit or via their direct website chat, but specifically for a highly planted Dutch style tank my understanding is to quickly switch to Apt 3 or Apt EI. Quickly meaning 2-4 weeks was my take away. That is what I am doing with my current tank. Good growth, but good amount of algae, will be checking nitrates this weekend and will post on my journal. I think for me the question is more as to apt 3 vs apt EI, since the ratio is quite different.

think the apt 1 is designed for sparsely planted tanks or with high fish stock ( aside from the initial 2-4 weeks) which is not the average person on this forum but I might be mistaken. My nitrates quickly became zero with APT 1.

 

[Sb1415]

Also, I understand P04 binds to clay soil, especially when new. So there's possibly a need to dose extra P for a while. How much P and how often? Do P04 test kits help with this?

This is something that i feel is a bit confusing when hearing from trustworthy sources, most here who use EI methodology would say dose more phosphate, the lean dosing method would say no phosphate (i believe the ADA system has no products containing phosphates, - but do rely heavily on substrates and maybe this is their way for them to have folk buy new aquasoil and all their other products) (**** just to clarify since this is a trigger point, I am just saying what lean dosing methodology suggests and am very much aware of Tom Barr's work in proving that phosphate is not the cause of algae).

I believe the APT 3 solution is to get midway, both the APT 3 and APT EI has phospate. For my ~ 21 gallon tank a dose of 2 ml of APT 3/daily provides in a week - (5.7 : 0.5 : 6.5 ppm) while 2 ml of APE EI/daily provides (15.3 : 1.1 : 11.5 ppm).

I am currently 4 - 6 weeks in with APT feast and facing lot of filamentous algae but the growth is good with APT 3. My thought process is that at some point the substrate is not going to be able to support the plants and I would end up going to APT EI (or Burr Aqua mix) or adding root tabs/inject substrate.

 

[Dennis Wong]

No need to dose extra PO4 if you're using APT range. You can start with APT3 for most tanks but there are other things to consider to make a new tank start smoother, they are covered in this article:
All the tanks used in the article are feast+APT3 (dosed from day one)

How to stabilize a new planted tank

New planted aquariums that are not yet biologically matured present a volatile environment for plants and inhabitants. Accelerate the biological maturity of the tank by adding seed bacteria from matured filters or substrate. More large water changes remove organic detritus and algae spores.

www.2hraquarist.com

 

[Unexpected]

what is pushing me away from aquasoils, to inert sand tanks.

100%. Never again will I use them. Inert is just easier.

 

[Koan]

Never again will I use them. Inert is just easier.

I think this shows up the (big) step between our skilled, experienced Dutch plant keepers, and all the folks out there still struggling to get beautiful plants to actually grow in their aquascape

For everyone still finding their feet, aquasoils can be a gift from heaven One more piece to simplify the insanity, provide much needed momentum, and make the difference between giving up in despair and catching the bug!

It's good to hear that once you get past a certain point with your tanks, they can get to be more trouble than they're worth

 

[BenB]

For everyone still figuring out the ropes, aquasoils can be a gift from heaven One more piece to simplify the insanity, provide much needed momentum, and make the difference between giving up in despair and catching the bug!

Ha... I feel a bit called out as I am in the middle of writing a Help post because I just can't seem to figure out aquasoils.

 

[Koan]

Well but just the opposite, right? Maybe once you are at the point of rolling your own / tweaking your own fertilizers, that may be a good milestone where you might start benefiting more from inert substrate?

I know you grow gorgeous healthy plants,



Ive had them here

 

[BenB]

Well but just the opposite, right? Maybe once you are at the point of rolling your own / tweaking your own fertilizers, that may be a good milestone where you might start benefiting more from inert substrate?

Inert is what I did for years. I used to grow in Flourite. I don't know why this has me in a mess. I need to update my journal post though. I noticed tonight the new growth on some of my plants is massive. Maybe what I haven't gotten the hang of yet is patience.

 

[Koan]

I noticed tonight the new growth on some of my plants is massive

 

[BenB]

View attachment 11191

This is totally me.

 

[BenB]

View attachment 11190

Ive had them here

Oh yeah, glad all those worked out for you. The P helferi there looks great.

 

[Koan]

The P helferi there looks great

It did.. I killed it

Wasn't easy to do, but I did it that pic was prior to this past summer's carnage

 

[Dennis Wong]

The main reason to use aquasoil is that it grows plants better than what inert substrates can do alone. If you compare close-up pics of my or Tom barr's plants vs those grown by good growers that use inert substrate, you can find differences in many species. That's the reason why folks still use aquasoil even if we have all the water column dosing knowledge in the world.

 

[Dennis Wong]

An added point is that aquasoil is easy to use for folks that don't over think it. Forum folks consist heavily of the 1% crowd that prefers non-commercial solutions, especially ones that do cost a lot. But I find that commercial products often offer an easy way out so to say, for folks that do not want to become chemists just to participate in the hobby. As aquasoils and all-in-one solutions become more popular, I have seen difficult plants being grown with more ease over the years - and this is observable across all regions (that did not produce such tanks before). Aquasoil usage allows one to get results with much less tight water column control necessary.

Some examples from across the globe:

This guy is from Singapore: Kaysen. Guy isn't really into the science of it all, he doesn't even know the difference between GH and KH. Doesn't own any nutrient test kit either. This is his second planted tank. However, he is precise in following instructions on CO2 tuning, water changes, replanting/trimming. Can grow most "difficult" species quite easy. Because of folks like him, local Eriocaulon quinquangulare's price fell from 60+ USD a plant to less than 5 USD a plant within a couple of years when I my influence on the hobby took root locally. Folks here stop farming blood vomit because the price got so low it was not worth it any more.


Guy from Philipines: Elexer - similar to Kaysen above, not deeply into the science of it, but good horticulture skills. For many of these folks English is not their first language, so much of online literature that is not translated can be hard to digest for them.


Jhayar espiritu - UAE. Same situation as those above.


could the tanks above be produced with inert substrates? yes with much more effort. In fact, if I was to be blunt, many of the so called experts with inert substrates still can't grow plants that are in the tanks above well. Aquasoil + all-in-one ferts make it easy to do for folks that have no chemistry knowledge. BTW, no front loading/extra PO4 and what not for the tanks above. Most are APT3/APTe, low KH tanks with GH raised to 5.

I used to be part of the DIY hobbyist crowd that was anti-commercial products. After starting 2hr Aquarist, I realize that I enabled many non-chemist folks across the globe to have great tanks with minimal effort and knowledge. So I am no longer abashed about espousing the values of things like aquasoils or all-in-one fertilizers.

 

[Naturescapes_Rocco]

I 100% agree. Aquasoil is the perfect substrate for beginners, intermediates, and most experts alike.

For everyone still finding their feet, aquasoils can be a gift from heaven One more piece to simplify the insanity, provide much needed momentum, and make the difference between giving up in despair and catching the bug!

An added point is that aquasoil is easy to use for folks that don't over think it.

Some examples from across the globe:

This guy is from Singapore: Kasen. Guy isn't really into the science of it all, he doesn't even know the difference between GH and KH. Doesn't own any nutrient test kit either. This is his second planted tank.

After starting 2hr Aquarist, I realize that I enabled many non-chemist folks across the globe to have great tanks with minimal effort and knowledge. So I am no longer abashed about espousing the values of things like aquasoils or all-in-one fertilizers.

Without aquasoil and without the explosion of aquascaping interest, especially through Youtube and social media, the hobby would have 10% of the people we have today.

Hell, I wouldn't be here. I needed aquasoil to keep things simple for me until I caught the 1% bug to learn every optimal PPM and ratio possible

My own recent example of how aquasoil is the best: The other day, a friend asked me to help get him started with the hobby. I had him start with aquasoil and APT 1 + APT 3, and to just "dose the ferts" at a lean level, and call me when he gets algae. He's the kind of guy who doesn't give a damn about PPM's, measuring, or any science of it.

Without aquasoil, he'd never have tried this hobby. He's now sending me weekly pics of all the growth his plants are putting out and tells me that he stares at his tank for hours every day.

Long live aquasoil, even though aquasoil isn't always long-lived