Journal 20 gallon Rotala florida tank

[Dennis Wong]

@Dennis Wong - Would you be able to share more details about your sponge only filter approach? I have read your article "Guide to filter media in planted tanks" and "Filter media layout and sequence for planted tank", and I'm a bit confused because one suggests all sponge whereas the next suggests a mix of several types of media. The questions I still have after reading these articles are:

• a more specific breakdown of what density foam you use in each stage of the Biomaster filter (including prefilter)
• the frequency and method used for cleaning the sponges (i.e. I'd assume they're rinsed in aquarium water)
• any other logic behind these decisions that may be helpful (i.e. how do you know you have enough or too much sponge)

This may be worth making into its own thread. I'm sure it would be useful to others for well known community members like yourself to share your approaches to filter media.

Finally, just wanted to say thanks for all the articles on your website as they've been an immensely helpful resource. (And thanks to Jeff Miotke for steering me to your site and sharing his knowledge as well)

The order of media suggestions are for folks that want to have different types of media. They are recommended arrangements if you are using the different types suggested.

I use Oase biomasters, so the main trays are all filled with 30ppi sponge. The prefilter comes with 40ppi sponge I think. The pre-filter is cleaned once every 2-4 weeks. The main chamber sponges are only rinsed out once every 8 - 12 months. I don't think rinsing in tap water affects anything substantially - the amount of chlorine in standard tap water (2ppm+) doesn't have enough dwell time to negatively impact microbes, especially in matured bio-films. (unless you are soaking the sponges for hours, rather than just rinsing and replace)

I think filter media is another one of those nuanced things that are hard to test for empirically for home hobbyists. I've been wanting to do more controlled testing now that I have the budget and space, but I'm short on time.

Quoting from my own site:
"Ammonia oxidation is not the only role played by filter media microbes. The amount of filter media required for ammonia oxidation alone is surprisingly small. In acidic aquarium environments where the pH is less than 7, most of the ammonia is in the ammonium form, which makes it non-toxic.

However, ammonia is not the only form of pollutant in aquarium water. Large particles of organic waste give rise to pathogenic microbes if they are not broken down quickly. Filter media harbor microbes that form bio-films that clump together fine organic waste and other contaminants. The filter also acts as a trap for large organic waste particles. This is what keeps the water crystal clear in a mature aquarium with adequate filtration. Even very fine filter media alone would have a hard time clarifying the water without the help of microbial bio-films. Having more filter media is therefore important for maintaining good water quality."

I think that many stable, matured planted aquariums will work even if the filter was removed, due to the microbes in the substrate and surfaces in the tank. However, the filter is an important backup for small shake-ups that can affect the tank. For example if a couple of the Fire ant tetras from my 75 liter tanks died due to some reason (and the bodies were not spotted/removed)- having a good sized filter to absorb the spike in organic pollutants may allow the tank to continue to run normally without triggering foul water/more deaths or creating a shift in tank's microbial mix that can cause algae to spawn. Designing tests that can assign empirical numbers to effectiveness is a whole other conundrum.

Having more media is protective from a biologically stability point of view. Its hard to quantify, but its easy to see why its highly regarded by folks with heavy livestock load or more expensive fish. A lack of adequate filter media can also be made up for by intensive maintenance and attention to shake-ups, so there will be definitely stories of folks that have gone by with doing less.

With regards to size, saltwater folks will recommend the sump be around 1/3 size of the tank. An Oase biomaster 250 (which is what I use) has around 4.4 litres of media, on a 75L tank gives a ratio of only 6% media to tank volume. This has worked very well for my own setups. Oase's own recommendations says a Biomaster 250 can be used up to a tank of 250 litres (1.8% of tank volume as filter media). If you browse fish-focused sites you will see many calculations for amount of media to fish ratio, however, due to the light bio-load approach of most planted tank systems, it seems most of us would be well below the threshold, especially if one purchases systems with the rule of thumb of aiming for 5X to 10X turnover.

 

[CincyScaper]

The order of media suggestions are for folks that want to have different types of media. They are recommended arrangements if you are using the different types suggested.

I use Oase biomasters, so the main trays are all filled with 30ppi sponge. The prefilter comes with 40ppi sponge I think. The pre-filter is cleaned once every 2-4 weeks. The main chamber sponges are only rinsed out once every 8 - 12 months. I don't think rinsing in tap water affects anything substantially - the amount of chlorine in standard tap water (2ppm+) doesn't have enough dwell time to negatively impact microbes, especially in matured bio-films. (unless you are soaking the sponges for hours, rather than just rinsing and replace)

I think filter media is another one of those nuanced things that are hard to test for empirically for home hobbyists. I've been wanting to do more controlled testing now that I have the budget and space, but I'm short on time.

Quoting from my own site:
"Ammonia oxidation is not the only role played by filter media microbes. The amount of filter media required for ammonia oxidation alone is surprisingly small. In acidic aquarium environments where the pH is less than 7, most of the ammonia is in the ammonium form, which makes it non-toxic.

However, ammonia is not the only form of pollutant in aquarium water. Large particles of organic waste give rise to pathogenic microbes if they are not broken down quickly. Filter media harbor microbes that form bio-films that clump together fine organic waste and other contaminants. The filter also acts as a trap for large organic waste particles. This is what keeps the water crystal clear in a mature aquarium with adequate filtration. Even very fine filter media alone would have a hard time clarifying the water without the help of microbial bio-films. Having more filter media is therefore important for maintaining good water quality."

I think that many stable, matured planted aquariums will work even if the filter was removed, due to the microbes in the substrate and surfaces in the tank. However, the filter is an important backup for small shake-ups that can affect the tank. For example if a couple of the Fire ant tetras from my 75 liter tanks died due to some reason (and the bodies were not spotted/removed)- having a good sized filter to absorb the spike in organic pollutants may allow the tank to continue to run normally without triggering foul water/more deaths or creating a shift in tank's microbial mix that can cause algae to spawn. Designing tests that can assign empirical numbers to effectiveness is a whole other conundrum.

Having more media is protective from a biologically stability point of view. Its hard to quantify, but its easy to see why its highly regarded by folks with heavy livestock load or more expensive fish. A lack of adequate filter media can also be made up for by intensive maintenance and attention to shake-ups, so there will be definitely stories of folks that have gone by with doing less.

With regards to size, saltwater folks will recommend the sump be around 1/3 size of the tank. An Oase biomaster 250 (which is what I use) has around 4.4 litres of media, on a 75L tank gives a ratio of only 6% media to tank volume. This has worked very well for my own setups. Oase's own recommendations says a Biomaster 250 can be used up to a tank of 250 litres (1.8% of tank volume as filter media). If you browse fish-focused sites you will see many calculations for amount of media to fish ratio, however, due to the light bio-load approach of most planted tank systems, it seems most of us would be well below the threshold, especially if one purchases systems with the rule of thumb of aiming for 5X to 10X turnover.

View attachment 9941

Is there any role for biological media like seachem matrix or the oase plastic rings, since they might not trap materials that well? Or is just foam the best option. This is specifically for densely planted tanks and not stocked with too many fish. Thank you

 

[ScaperHaynes]

The order of media suggestions are for folks that want to have different types of media. They are recommended arrangements if you are using the different types suggested.

I use Oase biomasters, so the main trays are all filled with 30ppi sponge. The prefilter comes with 40ppi sponge I think. The pre-filter is cleaned once every 2-4 weeks. The main chamber sponges are only rinsed out once every 8 - 12 months. I don't think rinsing in tap water affects anything substantially - the amount of chlorine in standard tap water (2ppm+) doesn't have enough dwell time to negatively impact microbes, especially in matured bio-films. (unless you are soaking the sponges for hours, rather than just rinsing and replace)

I think filter media is another one of those nuanced things that are hard to test for empirically for home hobbyists. I've been wanting to do more controlled testing now that I have the budget and space, but I'm short on time.

Quoting from my own site:
"Ammonia oxidation is not the only role played by filter media microbes. The amount of filter media required for ammonia oxidation alone is surprisingly small. In acidic aquarium environments where the pH is less than 7, most of the ammonia is in the ammonium form, which makes it non-toxic.

However, ammonia is not the only form of pollutant in aquarium water. Large particles of organic waste give rise to pathogenic microbes if they are not broken down quickly. Filter media harbor microbes that form bio-films that clump together fine organic waste and other contaminants. The filter also acts as a trap for large organic waste particles. This is what keeps the water crystal clear in a mature aquarium with adequate filtration. Even very fine filter media alone would have a hard time clarifying the water without the help of microbial bio-films. Having more filter media is therefore important for maintaining good water quality."

I think that many stable, matured planted aquariums will work even if the filter was removed, due to the microbes in the substrate and surfaces in the tank. However, the filter is an important backup for small shake-ups that can affect the tank. For example if a couple of the Fire ant tetras from my 75 liter tanks died due to some reason (and the bodies were not spotted/removed)- having a good sized filter to absorb the spike in organic pollutants may allow the tank to continue to run normally without triggering foul water/more deaths or creating a shift in tank's microbial mix that can cause algae to spawn. Designing tests that can assign empirical numbers to effectiveness is a whole other conundrum.

Having more media is protective from a biologically stability point of view. Its hard to quantify, but its easy to see why its highly regarded by folks with heavy livestock load or more expensive fish. A lack of adequate filter media can also be made up for by intensive maintenance and attention to shake-ups, so there will be definitely stories of folks that have gone by with doing less.

With regards to size, saltwater folks will recommend the sump be around 1/3 size of the tank. An Oase biomaster 250 (which is what I use) has around 4.4 litres of media, on a 75L tank gives a ratio of only 6% media to tank volume. This has worked very well for my own setups. Oase's own recommendations says a Biomaster 250 can be used up to a tank of 250 litres (1.8% of tank volume as filter media). If you browse fish-focused sites you will see many calculations for amount of media to fish ratio, however, due to the light bio-load approach of most planted tank systems, it seems most of us would be well below the threshold, especially if one purchases systems with the rule of thumb of aiming for 5X to 10X turnover.

Thanks for the detailed reply! I discovered your article about tank cycling and biological filtration shortly after posting this and found that you'd already addressed some of my questions there.

Given that the Oase foam inserts are pretty expensive ($12-$13/piece), and that your articles cite 20-30ppi foam being a good range to target, I wondered if might be able to just use the foam that came with my filter (see attached image). As you'd stated, filtration is hard to test empirically, but if your experience suggests that 30ppi throughout the chamber is optimal (aside from pre-filter), I'll find a way to make that happen (likely with cheaper foam cut to size). Likewise, should I literally fill each tray with foam? (referring to the thickness of the foam filling the trays, as main trays are deeper than the top one).

I realize this is not an exact science and I might be getting lost in the details here. As an engineer I'm used to getting very specific about material types, dimensions, etc. to make sure things work as planned.

 

[Dennis Wong]

Thanks for the detailed reply! I discovered your article about tank cycling and biological filtration shortly after posting this and found that you'd already addressed some of my questions there.

Given that the Oase foam inserts are pretty expensive ($12-$13/piece), and that your articles cite 20-30ppi foam being a good range to target, I wondered if might be able to just use the foam that came with my filter (see attached image). As you'd stated, filtration is hard to test empirically, but if your experience suggests that 30ppi throughout the chamber is optimal (aside from pre-filter), I'll find a way to make that happen (likely with cheaper foam cut to size). Likewise, should I literally fill each tray with foam? (referring to the thickness of the foam filling the trays, as main trays are deeper than the top one).

I realize this is not an exact science and I might be getting lost in the details here. As an engineer I'm used to getting very specific about material types, dimensions, etc. to make sure things work as planned.

I buy larger pieces of foam in bulk and just cut them to size. Yes, the trays are just filled with foam so to say.

Is there any role for biological media like seachem matrix or the oase plastic rings, since they might not trap materials that well? Or is just foam the best option. This is specifically for densely planted tanks and not stocked with too many fish. Thank you

Maybe testing on fish-heavy setups may yield different outcomes, but I prefer 100% foam media for my setups so far.

 

[Dennis Wong]

Syngonanthus vichada - been propagating it in the Rotala florida tank, but its quite delicate and doesn't like being squeezed in by other plants.




Syngonanthus 'lago grande'. Spikier top compared to S. macrocaulon and a truly great plant for shaping into bushes as it tolerates self-crowding well.


Ludwigia 'super red'

 

[BenB]

Syngonanthus vichada - been propagating it in the Rotala florida tank, but its quite delicate and doesn't like being squeezed in by other plants.

I have this. It is starting to get going. It is a slow grower. It looks like it is starting some side shoots. Is that how it propagates? The lower leaves on mine look bad and some have died. I want to pull the plants up and trim and clean up, but I don't want to disturb them. One is putting out a big new root.

Any other tips on growing them? I couldn't find any on your page. I love their olive green/grey coloring.

 

[Dennis Wong]

I have this. It is starting to get going. It is a slow grower. It looks like it is starting some side shoots. Is that how it propagates? The lower leaves on mine look bad and some have died. I want to pull the plants up and trim and clean up, but I don't want to disturb them. One is putting out a big new root.

Any other tips on growing them? I couldn't find any on your page. I love their olive green/grey coloring.

Hmm I do think that they prefer higher CO2 levels than normal (50ppm? rather than 30ppm), and not to let water column nutrients bottom out - they seem to feed more from water column than substrate. Low KH also.

As with most other species, it is not a one success factor plant (similar to other picky species such as Hygrophila chai, Eriocaulon quinquangulare). Difficult plants grow well when the system is set up to grow them well - this includes an entire set of small optimizations, equipment choices and plant techniques, which in combination produces better outcomes. While I know I massage my tanks into that direction generally, its hard to narrow down the exact weightage each factor plays relative to the next.



BG2011 close-ups.
Everyday online I still see fakes being sold. I think those of us who have cuttings from the original batch should continue posting them more often for buyers to have a relative comparison.

 

[Dennis Wong]

Side view shot today~
The controlled growth speed of Rotala florida has worked out very well in this aquarium so far. Syngonanthus has also been a great bush to prune/shape without uprooting.

 

[CincyScaper]

Syngonanthus has also been a great bush to prune/shape without uprooting

In your website article on how to grow syngonanthus sp , you had mentioned they do better with topping and replanting and discarding the stems. Could you please clarify? Can I also prune the top and leave the stem without uprooting ? Would it form another “mop head”?

 

[Dennis Wong]

In your website article on how to grow syngonanthus sp , you had mentioned they do better with topping and replanting and discarding the stems. Could you please clarify? Can I also prune the top and leave the stem without uprooting ? Would it form another “mop head”?

The website is right in that you can't just slice the head off. I mean you can, but unless the base is super healthy, recovery is not certain, or rather even if it recovers the main stem is stressed.

How I trim the bush is by picking off individual side shoots at the point where they connect the main stem. So I'll look for which head sticks out unevenly, trace the stem back to where it connects to the main stem, then cut that shoot off. In weekly trimming sessions, I could remove 10-20% of the total heads in a bush by doing this. Over time, the bush will sprout side shoots where light is available, naturally filling in gaps. The self-crowding over time also slows growth down.

 

[CincyScaper]

The website is right in that you can't just slice the head off. I mean you can, but unless the base is super healthy, recovery is not certain, or rather even if it recovers the main stem is stressed.

How I trim the bush is by picking off individual side shoots at the point where they connect the main stem. So I'll look for which head sticks out unevenly, trace the stem back to where it connects to the main stem, then cut that shoot off. In weekly trimming sessions, I could remove 10-20% of the total heads in a bush by doing this. Over time, the bush will sprout side shoots where light is available, naturally filling in gaps. The self-crowding over time also slows growth down.

View attachment 10190

Ok thank you, just recently planted mine so will just wait for it to make side shoots.

 

[Dennis Wong]

Syngonanthus bush, around 3 months old - trimmed in place without replanting by picking off individual heads.
Rotala macrandra mini type 4 green - 2nd or 3rd straight trim cycle
Ludwiga super red - 1 straight trim, then picked individual heads

Some guy called Marcos on FB made a joke about me flexing my equipment, so here it is lol.

Data can be useful but I think the even more useful angle is trying out different methods and tank styles. i.e. running an Iwagumi if you only have ever done Dutch, or doing a Dutch when you have only done Nature style.


mini Type 4 side view

 

[CincyScaper]

View attachment 10205
Syngonanthus bush, around 3 months old - trimmed in place without replanting by picking off individual heads.
Rotala macrandra mini type 4 green - 2nd or 3rd straight trim cycle
Ludwiga super red - 1 straight trim, then picked individual heads
View attachment 10206
Some guy called Marcos on FB made a joke about me flexing my equipment, so here it is lol.

Data can be useful but I think the even more useful angle is trying out different methods and tank styles. i.e. running an Iwagumi if you only have ever done Dutch, or doing a Dutch when you have only done Nature style.

View attachment 10208
mini Type 4 side view

Looks amazing!! Can you comment on plants like the L.super red that starts creeping laterally rather than growing straight up. I had thought it is due to high light but I see that you have yours under high light but growing vertically. Is it something to do with how you trim it?

 

[BenB]

Some guy called Marcos on FB made a joke about me flexing my equipment, so here it is lol.

Your equipment intimidates me.

Actually, I love all your tests. I just can't believe you have a tank with a 271 PAR though. It's awesome.

 

[JayP]

Looks amazing!! Can you comment on plants like the L.super red that starts creeping laterally rather than growing straight up. I had thought it is due to high light but I see that you have yours under high light but growing vertically. Is it something to do with how you trim it?

I had this issue with super red initially, but found that after letting it get tall and to the point of going laterally, if I them trimmed way down, cut off side shoots from the trimmings so there was just a single stem, then replanting those stems, I get more of a clean tall vertical growth. Also important for mine to have plenty of substrate fertilization to help cut down on stems sending out water column roots. I also go ahead and pull those original stems and roots after a few rounds of those heavy trimmings. Learned that from Dennis's posts.

 

[Dennis Wong]

Looks amazing!! Can you comment on plants like the L.super red that starts creeping laterally rather than growing straight up. I had thought it is due to high light but I see that you have yours under high light but growing vertically. Is it something to do with how you trim it?

Many of the stem plants creep if given space and high light, if you box them in by the sides they will be forced to grow upwards as the sideways space is filled. Then trim the ones that fan out if you want vertical growth - as you keep cutting away the heads that are growing in the wrong direction, you can shape the overall direction of growth over time.

 

[JayP]

Many of the stem plants creep if given space and high light, if you box them in by the sides they will be forced to grow upwards as the sideways space is filled. Then trim the ones that fan out if you want vertical growth - as you keep cutting away the heads that are growing in the wrong direction, you can shape the overall direction of growth over time

This may have been part of my issue. I planted all my background stems including the Ludwigia and Rotala with a considerable amount of space.

 

[Dennis Wong]

Wider angle shot of the left side of the tank. Purple staurogyne getting more purple rather than greyish as they get a tad larger. I had quite a lot of wood in the tank, but its now mostly hidden and just appear as shadowed areas in the tank. I guess plant showcase tanks always face the slippery slope of covering up the hardscape.

 

[Mr.Shenanagins]

I guess plant showcase tanks always face the slippery slope of covering up the hardscape.

I think it gives it a mature look, like in nature when foliage dominates the landscape in the right conditions. I look at hardscape as the skeleton and the plants the organs/flesh of the scape.

 

[Dennis Wong]

BG2011. Has been around in the hobby for quite long by now, I still wonder why it is not as commonly distributed given its relative ease of growth.





Rotala florida bushes maturing well, most stems have been trimmed at least 3 to 4 times by now. Makes me wonder if a replanting cycle is coming. The bottoms are shedding significant amount of older leaves though the tops look pretty good.