CO2/pH controller recommendations?

[GreggZ]

There are a lot of cheap poor quality PH "pens" out there, but I'm a big fan of the Apera PH60 which would be at the high end of "pen" type meters.
I've used it and a Milwaukee MW102 "BNC" style meter for years for both home brewing and now the aquariums. The Milwaukee is more than $100 more than the Apera and yet, I use the Apera far more often. It's simpler, more convenient, and I actually find that it drifts less than the Milwaukee. In fact, I've replaced the probe on the Milwaukee but never the Apera, although I did have an Apera fail on me years ago due to my own screw up. Just make sure to take good care of them and keep the probes in storage solution when not in use.

I've never used the Apera which sounds like it's a nice step up from the cheapo pH pens.

And you bring up another good point. If a probe is not in use then it needs to be stored properly in a solution.

That's why IMO it's much better to have a unit that is always in the tank. Then it's always wet and you have far less issues. And you can look at a glance and see where the pH is at any time. Another advantage of BNC connected probes.

But as always there are loads of ways to manage ph/CO2, and everyone finds the method that works best for them. I will tell you knowing a great number of people in the hobby, in general those who use a controller would never be without them.

Then of course there are those who use a bubble counter and have great tanks too. I like controlling my variables so a controller appeals to me, others might not care at all and do just fine too. To each his own.

 

[Naturescapes_Rocco]

Excuse my ignorance,

This forum is the place for questions, no need to feel embarrassed! We love questions.

how do some of you use a flow meter? Is that to set an initial level, and monitor for stability and fine tune with the needle valve on the regulator?

See my post here!

Flowmeters give an actual reading of CO2/minute. It makes dialing in, replacing cylinders, moving setups, and making micro adjustments, FAR easier than bubble counters.

However, even the smallest-flow flowmeters are usually too big for nano tanks. Most flowmeters we use in this hobby will only work at a CO2/min rate that would be required by 30+ Gal or more.

Flowmeters are amazing for larger tank setups for sure, I will literally never have a large tank without one again.

 

[Aquajack]

Thanks for all the great info, I do like the idea of a PH controller being permanently in the water so can check on the PH level at any time. I don't suppose they record ph data do they? That would tell a nice picture all on its own. Particularly now I'm moving to RO water, the PH level at peak CO2 will drop below 6 and currently I have no way of measuring PH below that number so I do need some solution.

One question I thought on the PH controller, how do you determine the PH drop you want if your KH is at a very low level? Or is that by reverse engineering and you see what your PH level is based on the desired CO2 level?

So for using a flow meter, (initial setup that is), do you just ensure the bubble counter is at a good level (i.e. is adding enough CO2 atleast above the min you need), then work out on the flow meter exactly where you need to be? My regulator is a decent one I think but still of course will have all the inerhent problems associated with trying to adjust using a bubble counter.

 

[GreggZ]

Thanks for all the great info, I do like the idea of a PH controller being permanently in the water so can check on the PH level at any time. I don't suppose they record ph data do they? That would tell a nice picture all on its own. Particularly now I'm moving to RO water, the PH level at peak CO2 will drop below 6 and currently I have no way of measuring PH below that number so I do need some solution.

One question I thought on the PH controller, how do you determine the PH drop you want if your KH is at a very low level? Or is that by reverse engineering and you see what your PH level is based on the desired CO2 level?

So for using a flow meter, (initial setup that is), do you just ensure the bubble counter is at a good level (i.e. is adding enough CO2 atleast above the min you need), then work out on the flow meter exactly where you need to be? My regulator is a decent one I think but still of course will have all the inerhent problems associated with trying to adjust using a bubble counter.

I've been using pure RO for many years. My fully degassed pH reading is right around 6.40. I drop pH to 4.90 via CO2 injection. I expect you will be somewhere in the same range.

But to be sure leave a cup of tank water out for about two days. Start testing the pH every 4 hours or so until the reading is stable. This will give you a good decent base line to work with.

Then start adding CO2 and watch what happens. Whenever adjusting CO2 always be nearby to check on the livestock. If they start heading to the surface to breath then you've gone too far and back it off a bit. If they are doing well, then keep dialing it in. Then you'll know what your optimum target is.

As to the flow meter, yes if things are going pretty well then leave the needle valve where it's at to see what the flow rate is. If your flow meter has a valve, have it wide open. Once you get an idea of the flow rate then you can open the needle valve a little more and use the valve on the flow meter to back it off and fine tune.

The great thing about a flow meter is that you have a baseline to work with. So let's you are at 35 cc/min, it's very easy to test 30 or 40 cc/min. And even more importantly you are able to go back to 35 cc/min if you need to. With a bubble counter that is all complete guess work.

What size is the tank? Someone with a similar size may be able to chime in with their flow rate to give you a general idea of what to expect.

I had a flow meter before I had a controller so I still use both. I set the flow rate just a bit higher than it needs to be and then let the controller do it's work. Even though I really don't need the flowmeter I still like seeing the visual indication of what the flow rate is.


Hope that helps and good luck with the project.

 

[Aquajack]

I've been using pure RO for many years. My fully degassed pH reading is right around 6.40. I drop pH to 4.90 via CO2 injection. I expect you will be somewhere in the same range.

But to be sure leave a cup of tank water out for about two days. Start testing the pH every 4 hours or so until the reading is stable. This will give you a good decent base line to work with.

Then start adding CO2 and watch what happens. Whenever adjusting CO2 always be nearby to check on the livestock. If they start heading to the surface to breath then you've gone too far and back it off a bit. If they are doing well, then keep dialing it in. Then you'll know what your optimum target is.

As to the flow meter, yes if things are going pretty well then leave the needle valve where it's at to see what the flow rate is. If your flow meter has a valve, have it wide open. Once you get an idea of the flow rate then you can open the needle valve a little more and use the valve on the flow meter to back it off and fine tune.

The great thing about a flow meter is that you have a baseline to work with. So let's you are at 35 cc/min, it's very easy to test 30 or 40 cc/min. And even more importantly you are able to go back to 35 cc/min if you need to. With a bubble counter that is all complete guess work.

What size is the tank? Someone with a similar size may be able to chime in with their flow rate to give you a general idea of what to expect.

I had a flow meter before I had a controller so I still use both. I set the flow rate just a bit higher than it needs to be and then let the controller do it's work. Even though I really don't need the flowmeter I still like seeing the visual indication of what the flow rate is.


Hope that helps and good luck with the project.

Thanks @GreggZ for taking the time for such a considered reply. Super helpful for the continuing evolution of setting up this tank which is around 70G - 4 ft in length. I think I would like having the visual indicator also which would allow more finer control at the front end with the PH controller as a backup at the other end. Anything other than a small tank where the bubble count would still be measurable, i think they are basically useless on their own.

To take the baseline measurements I'll wait until I'm fully running the RO water as everything should change a bit after that.
My final piece of the CO2 puzzle for optimum efficiency is a reactor. I currently only run an inline diffuser.

 

[Art]

The Apex pH system does record pH levels so you can see the trend. I don’t know about the other controllers.

 

[Clare]

Thanks so much for these answers. Really helpful.

Am now dead keen on a pH controller!...Now to decide which one....(Have now read about American pinpoint, UP, Milwaukee, JBL, ?Weipro....and others....)...I'm in Australia, and good quality ones seem hard to find!

Wondering how often you all check your kH (as my understanding is this is important for working out what pH is appropriate for your tank to achieve a desired CO2 ppm)?

I'm sure I have heard about controllers which also include kH measurement, and uses that information to calculate appropriate CO2 injection....Anyone heard of such a thing? (For a tank like mine I think it's overkill)

 

[JacksonL]

Thanks so much for these answers. Really helpful.

Am now dead keen on a pH controller!...Now to decide which one....(Have now read about American pinpoint, UP, Milwaukee, JBL, ?Weipro....and others....)...I'm in Australia, and good quality ones seem hard to find!

Wondering how often you all check your kH (as my understanding is this is important for working out what pH is appropriate for your tank to achieve a desired CO2 ppm)?

I'm sure I have heard about controllers which also include kH measurement, and uses that information to calculate appropriate CO2 injection....Anyone heard of such a thing? (For a tank like mine I think it's overkill)

JBL controller has that function. But, it is just an in controller calculation that you will want to override eventually anyway.
You put in your KH and it selects a pH set point based on the KH/PH/CO2 tables. It doesn’t allow for anything else in your tank that is altering any of those factors such as organic processes and active soil.

 

[Clare]

Righto. I’ve bitten the bullet and gone for a Milwaukee controller. Wish me luck!

 

[Naturescapes_Rocco]

Make sure to post/report your findings here!

 

[TRyan]

I have a question about using a pH controller for CO2 levels while also using a kasa smart plug for a CO2 schedule.

I like to use a smart plug to stop CO2 injection from 7:00pm to 9:00am. I also want to keep the pH controller energized so I can read pH levels to all times. For those of you that use both a pH controller and a Kasa Smart plug together, do you use the smart plug to kill power to the whole controller or do you use the smart plug at the controller output to kill power to solenoid?

I'm wondering if using a smart plug at the controller output could potentially cause the smart plug to lose its memory schedule when CO2 gets too high and controller kills power to the output/kasa plug?

On the other hand, killing power to the whole pH controller every night doesn't seem right to me.

What do you like to do in this situation?

 

[GreggZ]

I have a question about using a pH controller for CO2 levels while also using a kasa smart plug for a CO2 schedule.

I like to use a smart plug to stop CO2 injection from 7:00pm to 9:00am. I also want to keep the pH controller energized so I can read pH levels to all times. For those of you that use both a pH controller and a Kasa Smart plug together, do you use the smart plug to kill power to the whole controller or do you use the smart plug at the controller output to kill power to solenoid?

I'm wondering if using a smart plug at the controller output could potentially cause the smart plug to lose its memory schedule when CO2 gets too high and controller kills power to the output/kasa plug?

On the other hand, killing power to the whole pH controller every night doesn't seem right to me.

What do you like to do in this situation?

I've been killing power to the whole pH controller with a Kasa smart plug every night for about 5,000 nights now. Still works perfectly.

If I want to check the pH level out of normal CO2 time I just turn on the unit and have a reading in about 2 seconds, then shut it off. And that is a VERY rare occasion but does come up from time to time.

 

[TRyan]

I've been killing power to the whole pH controller with a Kasa smart plug every night for about 5,000 nights now. Still works perfectly.

If I want to check the pH level out of normal CO2 time I just turn on the unit and have a reading in about 2 seconds, then shut it off. And that is a VERY rare occasion but does come up from time to time.

Thank you for your detailed response! This is just the info I needed. I appreciate it.

 

[JacksonL]

For a different perspective, I use a smart plug on the solenoid outlet of my controller. So the controller is always active, but the smart plug cuts power to the solenoid outside of my set times.
This allows the reading to be seen at other times, although it isn’t extremely useful it is nice to have it there.

 

[TRyan]

For a different perspective, I use a smart plug on the solenoid outlet of my controller. So the controller is always active, but the smart plug cuts power to the solenoid outside of my set times.
This allows the reading to be seen at other times, although it isn’t extremely useful it is nice to have it there.

Have you seen any issues with smart plug losing its schedule or connecting back to Wi-Fi after repeated loss of power throughout the day ( if pH gets too low)…?

 

[JacksonL]

Have you seen any issues with smart plug losing its schedule or connecting back to Wi-Fi after repeated loss of power throughout the day ( if pH gets too low)…?

I use Tapo plugs and have had no issues at all. Mine don’t click off a lot though, maybe once every second day.
I have never had a Tapo plug lose its schedule though and they always reconnect in my experience. I wouldn’t think turning off and on more often would change that.

 

[TRyan]

I use Tapo plugs and have had no issues at all. Mine don’t click off a lot though, maybe once every second day.
I have never had a Tapo plug lose its schedule though and they always reconnect in my experience. I wouldn’t think turning off and on more often would change that.

Ok, thank you. Good to know that doing it either way will work fine.