Would it make sense to combine dark and dry start?

[Beza]

Hallo,
I have been lurking on this forum for a few weeks as I am in the process of doing my first actual Aquascape. I am not new to keeping fish, in fact I started the hobby at about 9 or 10 years old(aka 45+ years ago), and I had the odd tank every now and then since. But I've never been much into growing aquatic plants, and things have changed a lot over the years.

So, I have been reading a lot about the benefits of a dark start, and find it quite convincing to go for. Now I am planning to use a lot of mosses and some other epiphytes, but can't really afford to buy a great amount of them, which is where the dry start begins to looks interesting. The tank in question has no soil, but inert substrate (lava gravel and fine pebbles), some lava rocks and wood. I will be using CO2 as well, with a simple version of the Yugang spraybar (still got to finish that one).

My understanding of the dark start benefits are that it will kickstart the bacterial life (I'll use a starter solution too). Now the same is actually being claimed about a dry start, even tho obviously no water movement happens there. So, would any of the bacteria from the dark start survive a subsequent dry start? Would they maybe just go into a kind of hibernation, as they do in nature? Or would it have any bad side effects - if anyone has tried it already and could tell me about their experiences, I'd be grateful!

 

[Unexpected]

I would say that's more for aqua soil tanks, but you could always dose ammonia while doing a dark start. Using an inert substrate for a dry start might require some nutrients for the plants. This might be a challenge. Personally, with an inert sub, I'd probably plant the heck out of and just run low light for the cycle.

 

[Beza]

Hmm in at least one of the vids I watched about dark start the fellow (I think it was MJ Aquascaping) mentioned it works for inert substrates too. I only plan to put a few plants directly in the substrate, and was thinking of using root tabs there. Else for the dry start I could use fertilized water to spray with, might help the mosses and epiphytes too. I could use some orchid fertilizer for that phase, which is fairly mild stuff, should be fit for plants which lack a decent root system.
I'd like to not do ammonia dosing, as that requires a) ammonia to use, and b) another test to buy. I'd rather restrict testing to nitrate. Plus it doesn't seem to be really needed, as supposedly the wood will leech some stuff to get the bacteria going during dark start, from what I heard.

Edit: I can't really afford to plant the heck out that tank, even if it would be nice. Gotta try the best with what I can do

 

[Naturescapes_Rocco]

Two thoughts:

1) I agree with Unexpected, Dark Start is far more important for aquasoil-based tanks, where the fresh aquasoil is leaching TONS of ammonia into the water column with no bacteria to start. They can be for inert substrates too for sure, but aquasoil tanks benefit the most from them by far.

2) Combining a Dark Start and Dry Start wouldn't make much sense. A Dry Start requires light to grow plants in an emersed, terrestrial form so they can easily develop a root system in the substrate before the tank is flooded. I don't like dry starts, because even though it helps develop a more robust root system, your plants will all have to go through a transitional period to their underwater growth forms; terrestrial growth planted under water either melts or rots, but both attract algae growth. I find that it's far better to get plants growing in their true submerged forms as fast as possible, so that's why I don't love dry starts. Regardless, the point is to provide light, humidity, and a moist substrate for the plants to grow root systems without algae being a major threat during the startup. Also helps get the substrate cycled to some extent. Requires light for the plants to grow, and a LOT of patience, usually 1 month minimum.

Dark starts are most common with aquasoils like I mentioned. They allow your substrate to release ammonia, cycle, age, and mature, all while algae can't get a foothold (because of the dark aspect). Dark starts usually take ~1 month to fully cycle, but after that they're fully ready for your plants and inhabitants.

Combining them isn't really possible. A dry start requires light for plants to grow, whereas a darkstart wants things dark without plants so algae can't grow. They're not compatible methods at all. I'd highly recommend trying a dark start for at least 1-2 weeks with an inert tank, and 2-4 weeks with soil/aquasoil!

 

[Unexpected]

Anything is possible, I'm just not familiar with both if I'm honest. Me personally, just plant the heck out of and run the light low and let all the plant debris, wood and all cycle it.

 

[Beza]

I fully get why dark start is mainly used for soil substrate, yet I keep seeing it recommended to kick start any tank to avoid some of the algae problems. And I am only eyeing the dry start afterwards because it would allow me to 'paint' the wood with moss particles, to allow it to attach and make best use of whatever amount I'll get from the shop.

I have found another suggestion though here on the forum which sounds intriguing - do a dark start, and meanwhile have the moss and epiphytes do their thing on the wood and stone in a different container, with light over it. I think I might give that a try.

Which then leads me to the next question - as I prefer to order all plants at once (reduces postage), do I put the stem plants in little pots with substrate/root tabs until the tank is ready? I should get them as in vitro from the shop.

 

[Unexpected]

I hate in vitro plants. Fail too much. Get it cycled and do a huge plant order. Use 100% cotton thread and attach the mosses and plant the tank all at once. My advice, don't over complicate it.

 

[Beza]

I won't be able to get submersed grown plants for the majority of what I want to use, so there will be an adaption phase for most plants one way or the other. I mean even the potted ones are grown emersed in the nurseries.
Guess I do a dark start anyhow, that'll give me time to think if I want to do a parallel dry start or rather not.

 

[Unexpected]

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[Beza]

Thank you very much for the link, but I am in Germany - I don't think ordering from Burr is even possible for me.

 

[Unexpected]

Thank you very much for the link, but I am in Germany - I don't think ordering from Burr is even possible for me.

Ah, yeah...that would be an issue

 

[Beza]

Much appreciated, but we do have some good vendors here too, as far as I can tell

 

[Pepere]

I agree with Unexpected, Dark Start is far more important for aquasoil-based tanks, where the fresh aquasoil is leaching TONS of ammonia into the water column with no bacteria to start. They can be for inert substrates too for sure, but aquasoil tanks benefit the most from them by far.

I dark started my 75 gallon with inert substrate and filter squeezings from sponges in my canister tanks on other tanks.

I was able to metabolize a 2 ppm ammonia challenge to 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites within 24 hours of dosing after 19 days.

I let the tank continue to mature for 2 more weeks.

After I was done I drained and refilled the tank and planted heavily with fully converted plants from my other tanks with very similar parameters.


I am absolutely sold on a dark started for inert tanks. I completely bypassed all of the ugly duckling stage start up algae issues.

I have no thoughts on following a dark started with a dry start…

 

[Beza]

Thank you for the input, Pepere, that definitely confirms for me that I should do a dark start.