Tin Foil Hat Vodka dosing a planted tank - carbon dosing for the planted aquarium

[Art]

I am happy to post the first Tin Foil Hat (meaning uncommon and unsubstantiated theory) thread.

Dosing a carbon source to an aquarium is a long-standing technique used in the reefing hobby to lower NO3 and PO4 through bacterial means. Vodka is a pure carbon source in addition to being a pretty good drink and is often used. Essentially, the theory is that bacterial populations in our aquariums are limited by the easy availability of organic carbon (not the type you are bubbling into it). By increasing the availability of organic carbon, you increase the bacterial population in your aquarium.

Bacteria are living organisms like our plants (and you and me). They respire and need a food source to grow. When they multiply and grow, they take up O2 by respiring and they take up NO3 (and to a lesser extent, PO4). This essentially competes with our fish and plants. We don't want that. Or, do we???

I did a podcast on this back in 2015 except I talked about dosing vinegar in your aquarium back then. It's the same thing as vodka but cheaper and not as much fun to drink. I'm proud to say our friend @Marcel G referenced my podcast in one of his posts.

What most people don't know (because I haven't told anyone) is that my thinking on this has evolved since 2015. I now follow a very focused method to my tin foil madness but please hear me out. Here's the story.

Ryan over on BRS TV was just starting to explore the hidden benefits of the aquarium microbiome in an effort to understand why new reef aquariums go through an ugly period when started. He was testing a dark start to avoid algae and allow bacteria to grow instead. People thought it was to cycle the tank but that wasn't the only point. The point was to give the microbiome time to grow and take up space. The theory was that if you allow bacterial to colonize the reef tank's rock surface, then it isn't as easy for algae to grow on it.

This got me thinking and so I put it to the test in a planted aquarium.

The theory was: Can I get bacteria to grow quickly in the initial phase of a planted tank so that algae would not be able to capitalize on the initial instability?

I've done three planted tanks since that time and in each one, I've dosed vodka daily for the first two months. I'm actually doing it now with my re-scaped tank.

The outcomes (and by no means scientific evidence): I've avoided the nasty startup algae that many people get. With the current tank, I'm even avoiding the usual fungus you get when you use spider wood in the beginning. Frankly, diatoms and dinos have also not been a problem.

All of this is observational and could be explained to be as a result of other reasons. However, after three times, hmmm... maybe there is something there. I do see my SAE's constantly nibbling on surfaces that I assume are covered with biofilm.

My completely unscientific guess is that the carbon dosing is causing bacteria to grow quicker than algae can. The colonize all available surfaces. By taking this space, algae has a tough time fixing itself to things, including plants. Bacteria can and will colonize the surface of plants and there are studies looking at the interaction of bacteria and leaf surface. I assume that the bacterial has also out-competed (is that a word?) the usual fungus I get on spider wood when submerged for the first time.

Now, some cautionary words:

• The first time I did this I dosed too much and got a massive cyanobacteria outbreak
• I have a well oxygenated tank, as bacteria will take oxygen away from the rest of the inhabitants
• I dose a small amount (.8 ml per day per 25 gallons)
• I stop dosing as soon as I feel the plants are growing well and can outcompete algae

So, now that you know about this, what do you say? Snake oil? "Art's lose his marbles?"

 

[cjday115]

My unscientific experience with vinegar dosing back in the day was an unprecedented amount of bacterial growth with a thick white slime similar to what you see growing on freshly submerged driftwood, although much more abundant, i.e. covering everything in the tank including plants, rock, substrate enough to severely reduce the flow out of my canister filter. I couldn't give you any measurements though, this was back when I was still figuring out aquariums in general and I was trying to lower pH, so i reckon I was dosing far more than .8ml/25gal.

 

[Art]

Thanks @cjday115. I had a similar experience with cyanobacteria the first time I did it while trying to figure out how much to dose. The lower amount with a slight ramp up over time has resulted in no visible sign of cyanobacteria.

 

[Art]

So I've obviously stunned all of you into silence. I'm sorry.

As @sudiorca's experiments, his AGA Convention talk and future scientific paper suggests, there is so much about the microbiome of our aquariums that we just don't know. We are beginning to understand some things.

Essentially, I'm trying to use bacteria to compete with algae during a vulnerable phase of a new aquarium.

 

[Count Krunk]

Try it and see what happens. Not uncommon at all in reefing, like you mentioned.

 

[Phish Tank]

I always admire fellow tin foil hat brethren.

It seems like such itty bitty doses for vodka, it would be hard to be accurate, and easy to overdo the dose. Especially if I’m in charge of the Titos bottle.

Why do folks use vodka over vinegar?

 

[HardeeParty]

So, after listening to that podcast episode you referenced I experimented with vinegar dosing to modest benefit. I also wasn’t as keen in my observation abilities as I am now, so is like to revisit this.

 

[Unexpected]

Does this speed up the nitrogen cycle? Would/could vodka dosing eliminate or reduce ammonia spikes, in say a substrate swap to Aqua soil, with already cycled media?

 

[cjday115]

I do wonder whether the ethanol in vodka would be a very effective nutrient for bacteria compared to organic acids such malic, succinic, and citric acids from apple cider vinegar.

 

[Art]

I always admire fellow tin foil hat brethren.

It seems like such itty bitty doses for vodka, it would be hard to be accurate, and easy to overdo the dose. Especially if I’m in charge of the Titos bottle.

Why do folks use vodka over vinegar?

Great question. I don't know the answer to that but I do believe there is a reason for it.

I use a small syringe that you get with test kits. It allows me to measure .8 ml pretty easily. I don't think uber precision is necessary so the biggest issue is the temptation to dose yourself with the vodka in addition to the tank.

 

[Art]

Does this speed up the nitrogen cycle? Would/could vodka dosing eliminate or reduce ammonia spikes, in say a substrate swap to Aqua soil, with already cycled media?

I don't worry too much about the nitrogen cycle so haven't given that much thought. I would suspect that because it is driven by bacteria, and bacteria would have more carbon that they would use to grow, then the answer MAY be yes. Not sure if I would rely on this to reduce or eliminate ammonia spikes though. I would rely on water changes and good plant uptake.

I do wonder whether the ethanol in vodka would be a very effective nutrient for bacteria compared to organic acids such malic, succinic, and citric acids from apple cider vinegar.

I got curious and looked it up on Google.

Dosing vinegar is similar to dosing ethanol except that vodka has more carbon in it than vinegar. The ratio is about 8 times more carbon in 80 proof (40% by weight) vodka than vinegar (which is usually 5% organic by weight). So, for a similar effect, you need to dose more vinegar than vodka.

 

[Art]

For anyone wanting to experiment with this, I would recommend going slowly and using observation and a nitrate test kit to fine tune. Bacteria will consume nitrate and you want to make sure they don't strip so much as to impact plant health.

As I mentioned, too much and you may get a cyanobacteria bloom. Too little and it's ineffective, at least to combat algae and diatoms.

 

[cjday115]

Dosing vinegar is similar to dosing ethanol except that vodka has more carbon in it than vinegar. The ratio is about 8 times more carbon in 80 proof (40% by weight) vodka than vinegar (which is usually 5% organic by weight). So, for a similar effect, you need to dose more vinegar than vodka.

If the amount of carbon remains the same, which is more easily processed and incorporated by the bacteria?

I have to imagine that ethanol as a generally toxic compound to the majority of bacterial species, except the acetic acid bacteria (AAB), would be rather detrimental unless AAB already exist in meaningful populations and are converting the ethanol into acetic acid. Vinegar would seem to bypass this step in metabolising the ethanol and if using Apple Cider Vinegar rather than household white vinegar, would also contain a myriad of other easily metabolized carbon bearing molecules including cellulose and sugars.

While vodka contains more carbon than household vinegar (40% ethanol vs 4-10%, acetic acid) ~99 percent of it is in a form that is toxic to most life, hence why I believe vinegar (especially apple cider vinegar) might prove more effective, even if it takes more to reach the same amount of carbon due to the lower concentration of household vinegars.

 

[Koan]

It seems like such itty bitty doses for vodka, it would be hard to be accurate, and easy to overdo

Just use a 1 ml syringe



20 for $6 at Bezosland, if you don't feel like dealing with a box of 100

 

[Koan]

The theory was: Can I get bacteria to grow quickly in the initial phase of a planted tank so that algae would not be able to capitalize on the initial instability?

I've done three planted tanks since that time.. The outcomes (and by no means scientific evidence): I've avoided the nasty startup algae that many people get. With the current tank, I'm even avoiding the usual fungus you get when you use spider wood in the beginning. Frankly, diatoms and dinos have also not been a problem

I love this plan.

Reefers live lives of such extraordinary financial expense, husbanding such delicate and intricate systems, that leveraging their successes is always a great idea!

I am just now booting up the fish room, putting water in three fresh-aquasoil scapes and a bowl (/ journal to follow).
I will do my best to remember to take pics, and report back at the end of dark start

Just to be clear @Art, you're adding 0.8 ml /25gal / day with plants in, yes? BRS advocates 0.1 ml /25gal / day to start and ramping up, monitoring parameters as you go, I expect dark start will fall in between.

 

[Burr740]

I tried this over the weekend on a new set up. Dosed the tank Fri. Then woke up Sat morning to an empty bottle. Tried it again Sat night. Sun morning same thing. Im not ready to say it doesnt work but it does seem like a very expensive way to do things...

 

[HardeeParty]

Dumb question here, I don’t drink, but I do have a bottle of Bombay sapphire gin that my brother gave me like, a decade ago sitting in my garage. Okay or no dice? I’ll buy vodka if I need to.

 

[Count Krunk]

I'll buy the bottom shelf vokda and trade you haha

 

[Tim Harrison]

I'll buy the bottom shelf vokda and trade you haha

Was thinking the same thing

 

[Art]

Dumb question here, I don’t drink, but I do have a bottle of Bombay sapphire gin that my brother gave me like, a decade ago sitting in my garage. Okay or no dice? I’ll buy vodka if I need to.

My advice would be to stick to the pure stuff. I'm not a gin drinker but I think Bombay may be infused with something.