Two unrelated general questions

[*Ci*]

In the process of switching up my tank to accommodate discus:

A Symphysodon Symphony

And I have two questions. First:

In setting up quarantine tank, it seems like many people jump start the cycle by using media from an established tank, but doesn’t that cross contaminate the q-tank? Isn’t part of the reason for quarantine to keep the new fish safe from pathogens and parasites in the display tank until you feel ready to introduce a sacrifice fish into the q-tank. Is this over thinking or would it be safer to start the cycle from scratch with just pure ammonia and maybe bottled bacteria?

Second:
The future discus tank is planted with anubias, java fern, echinodorus and some crypts. They are algae free and healthy. I have been dosing a light version of EI, front loaded once a week after a 50% water change. There is a low dose (.5 to .8 drop in ph) of Co2.
I want to change water more often when the discus come, at least twice a a week, maybe every 3 days and I am unsure of how to best change my dosing regime.
- Re-dose the full amount of macros and micros after every 50% change, no matter how many times a week?
- Split the dosing amounts up differently?
- What do I do if i decide to do some smaller changes, like 30%?
I’m not sure why I can’t figure this out myself, I feel at a loss. I don’t want to make any changes that upset the good balance I have now with the plants.

Thanks in advance for any advice or opinions!

 

[Koan]

doesn’t that cross contaminate the q-tank? Isn’t part of the reason for quarantine to keep the new fish safe from pathogens and parasites in the display tank

Let me preface this by saying that while I'm a vet interested in fish medicine, I am not yet a fish vet

This is a question you can break down if you like by thinking of what kinds of pathogens are a risk to your discus?

Bacterial pathogens like fish TB mycoplasma or columnaris are ever-present, and are generally only a risk to super stressed fish in terrible water etc. Also, virulence in any infection is dose dependent, meaning if you don't have visibly sick fish in your main tank shedding that bacteria, then those bacterial populations that are chilling in your filter medium will be at a background level, and unlikely to overwhelm the defenses of even your newly transported discus.

Viral pathogens are thankfully largely species specific. Koi KHV is not considered a risk to Betta fish, for example, Neon Tetra disease is not thought to affect more than a very few other characins. If your discus come in with discus plague, there wouldn't be anything you could do, but it is not likely to be already populating your filter.

Which leaves parasitic infections which of course can affect all fish. Fortunately Ich does not have an encysted stage, if you don't have active Ich on your fish then you don't have it in your tank. Velvet does have an encysted stage but it's not particularly dangerous and does respond well to anti-parasitics. Same goes for nematodes and other internal parasitic infections as well as flukes.

At the end of the day this is a peace of mind question for you, the only downside to starting an aquarium filter the long way is the time it takes.

I'm very excited to watch your project progress! Also definitely interested to hear what info you get back from the vets on Simply Discus. I think Dr Jesse Sanders turns up on Koiphen as well from time to time. It looks like Mahalo Vet on the island also advertises a fish practice, you might check in with them to see if they're discus savvy, for future reference.

Who did you end up buying from?

 

[Burr740]

- Re-dose the full amount of macros and micros after every 50% change, no matter how many times a week?

This, because "weekly total" really means the total between water changes

- What do I do if i decide to do some smaller changes, like 30%?

If the goal is to keep the same nutrient levels in the water then this will require a little math, or using an accumulation calculator such as Rotala Butterfly | Planted Aquarium Accumulation Calculator

Basically with 50% water changes you eventually level out with 2x the weekly total in the water column - 20ppm/week=40 in the water. (ignoring possible plant uptake for the sake of this example)

Changing only 33% of the water eventually levels out to having 3x the weekly total in the water

So if you go from 50% water changes to 30%, you'll need to lower your weekly dosing total to keep the same water column levels you have now

Its also a really good question because a lot of people dont realize the impact water change % has on dosing numbers. Just knowing what somebody doses per week is useless without also knowing how much water they change, but I digress

 

[ElleDee]

In setting up quarantine tank, it seems like many people jump start the cycle by using media from an established tank, but doesn’t that cross contaminate the q-tank? Isn’t part of the reason for quarantine to keep the new fish safe from pathogens and parasites in the display tank until you feel ready to introduce a sacrifice fish into the q-tank.

I am not an expert, but this is exactly opposite to how I think of it. The fish in my display tanks are healthy, whereas all new fish are treated as sick until proven otherwise, so I have no problem moving stuff including filter media from my display tanks to the QT, but never the other way around unless all fish have been cleared and/or everything has been sanitized. I have lost new fish in QT despite my best efforts in sourcing healthy fish and treating issues as best I can, but I've never had to deal with disease in my main tanks, so I consider that a system that is working as intended.

I wish that getting new fish was more consistently enjoyable, but it's more trial by fire.

 

[*Ci*]

Thank you @Koan for your very detailed response. It sounds like the risks are minimal since the fish in my main tank appear healthy. And thanks for the link to the fish vet in Nanaimo - only about a kilometre from where I live! I will be in contact with them.

I have not ordered any discus yet - just set up a 55g q-tank and found that the caniister filter I was going to use has a broken impeller. After a new one arrives, I will be cycling for a few weeks at least.

I have found this discus dealer in Ontario. His website is minimal but he has an active FB page with many videos of the fish. They would be flown to the west coast and I would need to pick them up at an airport about 1.5 hrs drive away.

Fins8 Canada

@Burr740 , thanks for your help with my dosing question. I figured math would be involved!
I think I will stick with 50% water changes - it seems like the simplest option.

@ElleDee , I understand your point of view. To be honest, I have never quarantined any fish in the past. Even my most expensive koi at $800 was just dumped into the pond! I’ve probably just been lucky, but I feel like introducing these discus in a safer manner. The group of them that I am planning, plus shipping is a large expense. Their health and well being has priority over the few small fish that are left in the main tank (I hope that doesn’t sound too cold hearted).

I think that I will bide my time and cycle the q-tank with ammonia and some Fritzyme 700, for the peace of mind. Then if anything goes wrong with the new discus, I won’t wonder if the used media was the cause.
Thanks again to everyone for your help : )

 

[*Ci*]

The future discus tank is planted with anubias, java fern, echinodorus and some crypts. They are algae free and healthy. I have been dosing a light version of EI, front loaded once a week after a 50% water change. There is a low dose (.5 to .8 drop in ph) of Co2.
I want to change water more often when the discus come, at least twice a a week, maybe every 3 days and I am unsure of how to best change my dosing regime.
- Re-dose the full amount of macros and micros after every 50% change, no matter how many times a week?
- Split the dosing amounts up differently?
- What do I do if i decide to do some smaller changes, like 30%?
I’m not sure why I can’t figure this out myself, I feel at a loss. I don’t want to make any changes that upset the good balance I have now with the plants.

Thanks in advance for any advice or opinions!

Here is a further question about dosing ferts in the discus tank, as I asked above.
I am expecting the nitrates in the tank to go way up, since discus are such heavy feeders, hence part of the reason for frequent water changes.
Should I make up a stock solution of macros that does not include nitrate and just dose that after the water changes? I keep nitrate at around 10ppm, so assuming that a 50% w/c will remove much of what the discus produce and leave some left, I won’t want to be dosing more?
Should I do extensive testing after the fish arrive or not fuss too much over the nitrate readings?

@BryceM , @Quagulator , how do you guys fertilize your discus tanks?