Unexpected
Well-known Member
How long does it take for the substrate to reach maturity? Does this timeframe change with different types of substrates, inert vs active?
Substrate Maturation
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Im pretty ignorant on the specifics too. Id like to know more about the beneficial stuff that forms between 'new' and 'mature', and what it does. And what exactly comes later that can have negative impacts
Seems like Dennis may have an article about some of this on his site. Im pretty sure @sudiorca knows a lot about it, maybe he'll chime in
Random observations
Like most everyone else I can easily spark a green or cloudy water bloom by not doing a water change after disturbing the sub very much
With major uprooting or a deep vacuum the fish head to the surface and gasp a little bit. So something either drops the O2, or itself really bothers the fish
Also get this, with major stuff like a deep vacuum, my hand and forearm breaks out with a slight but intensely itchy rash that last for a couple days. Thoroughly washing my hands right after doesnt help much either. Sometimes Im feeling a little itch before Im even done
Ive never seen plants melt like Frank said or noticed any issues really from vacuuming. I always do 80-90% wc right after though, might be why
And as most of us have seen plants or even the whole tank will definitely start having issues if its overdue for a good cleaning. Why is that?
Seems like Dennis may have an article about some of this on his site. Im pretty sure @sudiorca knows a lot about it, maybe he'll chime in
Random observations
Like most everyone else I can easily spark a green or cloudy water bloom by not doing a water change after disturbing the sub very much
With major uprooting or a deep vacuum the fish head to the surface and gasp a little bit. So something either drops the O2, or itself really bothers the fish
Also get this, with major stuff like a deep vacuum, my hand and forearm breaks out with a slight but intensely itchy rash that last for a couple days. Thoroughly washing my hands right after doesnt help much either. Sometimes Im feeling a little itch before Im even done
Ive never seen plants melt like Frank said or noticed any issues really from vacuuming. I always do 80-90% wc right after though, might be why
And as most of us have seen plants or even the whole tank will definitely start having issues if its overdue for a good cleaning. Why is that?
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sudiorca
Community Member
Those are really interesting observations that you mentioned Joe. I have also seen fishes gasping after major substrate disturbance and big water changes. I am not absolutely sure about the reasons but if I have to guess then I would say that it has something to do with release of various chemicals including particulate and dissolved organic carbon (POC and DOC) from deeper layers of substrate and/or significantly aerating the deep layers of substrate which could potentially increase microbial metabolism leading to consumption of oxygen at much faster pace than it can be supplied from the atmospheric dissolution of O2 (I might be completely wrong about this part
).I haven't felt any itchiness during water changes though as far as I remember but I will pay close attention to this from now on.
I also never faced any issues with plant melting after vacuuming the substrate.
I have been isolating and analyzing DNA from various layers of substrate along with filter and the initial data is very interesting. I did present that data during my latest talk at AGA convention. You should watch the video, you will find few interesting things
.I am currently in the middle of another sampling and analysis (third) which would give me an idea about the changes in the microbial community in the last 6 months or so. Microbial population in stable tanks is highly diverse and it is constantly changing. I have only presented the first analysis at AGA convention. I have done another analysis including bacteria, archaea and fungi of my non-CO2 as well CO2 supplemented tanks. The community is totally different than the first analysis and there is a significant difference in community between CO2 vs non-CO2 supplemented tanks. I have good amount of fishes in my CO2 injected tank and I see several bacteria commonly found in human guts (those most likely came from fish poop, suggesting similarities in gut environment between humans and fishes). I was quite dumb to only collecting samples from the top layer of substrate from my CO2 tank. I will be collecting samples from the deeper layers and from the filter this time (I have done these analysis for my non-CO2 supplemented tanks).
Unexpected
Well-known Member
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Interesting! I’ve noticed, as time passes, plants seem to do better around the 6 to 8th month of a new substrate. Inert ones is where I notice this. @gjcarew mentioned he was having a go then finally the tank found footing around the 8 month mark.
My substrate is about 3 months old and I would say my plants aren’t looking that great. I’ve made a few blunders recently, but still noticing they just aren’t acting like a mature tank.
I wonder too, when one should do vacuuming? Wait for maturity or wait for signs to occur it needs to be done? @GreggZ , have you completed a deep vacuum since your semi recent swap?
My substrate is about 3 months old and I would say my plants aren’t looking that great. I’ve made a few blunders recently, but still noticing they just aren’t acting like a mature tank.
I wonder too, when one should do vacuuming? Wait for maturity or wait for signs to occur it needs to be done? @GreggZ , have you completed a deep vacuum since your semi recent swap?
Mr.Shenanagins
Well-known Member
Is it safe to say that disturbing the substrate would release ammonia into the water column, enough to induce stress and cause respiration issues and fish gasping at the surface? I’ve only ever seen this with serious substrate disturbance, exposing the deepest most layers. I can deep vacuum my cosmetic sand around my island without any issue whatsoever, but if I disturb too deeply in the island where the bags of soil are laying I will get this reaction from the fish.
Video can be found here
, for those of us in the audience are not already Aquatic Gardener Association members (or else didn't realize this was a feature of membership 
)Click here to join Aquatic Gardeners Association!
Best $25 you'll spend this year.
Oops that's embarrassing2024 is not posted... Anyone know when it might be up?
Its usually 2-3 months after the convention iirc
sudiorca
Community Member
They uploaded the videos yesterday but it is only available for people who physically attended the convention. The videos will be available to watch for other members sometime next week.
This can’t be good and is a bit worrisome. I’ve never had this issue in 10+ years of planted tanks no mater how much CO2 or Ferts used. Was this Inert or Aquasoil?
Its happened with both
I believe it would be wise to consult a medical doctor on this, and inform them that you regularly get your hands and arms wet in fish tanks. I am no medical doctor, but researching these symptoms I do read there is some risk that bacteria from your tank cause some issues that you may want to address.
ElleDee
Active Member
@Burr740, I know plant breeders who have developed weird and specific plant sensitivities from repeated exposure at work that manifest in ways similar to what you have described. You get several breeders together and most of them have some genus that bothers them now. I've heard this can be a problem for entomologists too - they suddenly get allergic to the very species they are studying. Maybe you are experiencing something like that?
I recently discovered I have a slight crypt sensitivity that only became apparent when I tore down a tank filled with them and my wrists got red and irritated while I was working. Looking online I'm not the only person this has happened to. The human body is weird.
I recently discovered I have a slight crypt sensitivity that only became apparent when I tore down a tank filled with them and my wrists got red and irritated while I was working. Looking online I'm not the only person this has happened to. The human body is weird.
Negative, But it only happens if I do a major deep vac and keep my arm in the water for a long time, And its usually just a minor little spot or two. Its only been what Id call bad once or twice
Funny you mention plants. I had one Echinodorus hadi pearl in a tank for a few months. This was back when I only had maybe 3-4 tanks. I didnt put it together at first but all of a sudden when Id do much tank work Id get a similar rash break out. Was actually worried I was gonna have to quit the hobby or start using full arm gloves, lol. Finally put it together that it only happened in one tank and it also started about the same time I got the sword. Got rid of the sword and it never happened again
SkaleyAquatics
Active Member
Should've got full arm gloves a much better solution then tossing plants lol
Mr.Shenanagins
Well-known Member
Just to add to the strange botanical allergies, I like many people am badly allergic to Poison Ivy. Fast forward to when I first bought fresh mangoes from the store. Several days later I noticed that I had developed random rash spots on my arms, legs, etc. I also developed a strange ring around my lips that I first mistook for them being chapped. When I tried to narrow down the cause, I realized that the only recently new change was the mangoes. Research led me to learn that the oils secreted by the mango are from the SAME family as poison ivy. Who would have thought 
