Help Stripes on rotala, is it a deficiency?

[riioKen]

Hi guys,

I have horizontal stripes on old rotala leaves, it happens on both rotala h'ra and rotala orange juice (this one is more affected).

New growth isn't affected.

Ferts routine: APT 3 at suggested dosage, CO2 6.7 kh3.

Livestock is formed by cpd, amano, otos, ember tetra, pygmy Cory.

 

[Freshflora]

Rotalas, especially rotundifolia types do not mind lean fert conditions at all, so I would hesitate to diagnose a deficiency. How are you measuring your CO2? The best way is the relative PH drop method.

 

[riioKen]

How are you measuring your CO2? The best way is the relative PH drop method.

In both methods.
- pH 6.6/6.7 (end of photoperiod)
- kh 3
- degassed pH 8

 

[Burr740]

Rich sub or inert?

 

[riioKen]

Rich sub or inert?

Rich substrate, tropica aqua soil bought in June.

 

[riioKen]

Rich sub or inert?

I'm posting some photos.

New growth seems healthy, but old growth is deteriorating.

I read that this happens when a mobile nutrients is lacking (NPK).
I'm dosing weekly:
NO3: 7ppm
Po4: 2.94ppm (+1ppm due GSA spread)
K: 16ppm

The light is on for 5h at 60% (chihiros WRGB2 Slim60)
Algae seems under control (except on glass. On plants isn't growing anymore, instead it's decreasing), next week I'll plan to push 70% for 5h.

 

[BigWave]

I read that this happens when a mobile nutrients is lacking (NPK).
I'm dosing weekly:
NO3: 7ppm

Absolutely correct.
Now if your weekly accumulation is only 7ppm NO3 you are only adding +-1.6ppm N per week. This is next to nothing. Should be dosing about that much per day. Especially with that light and good CO2 with a 1.0 pH drop or more.
APT is a generally lean All in One but many love it due to the fact your dosing for slower growth / slow down growth and to also dose lean so as to bring out the so called colors.

 

[riioKen]

Absolutely correct.
Now if your weekly accumulation is only 7ppm NO3 you are only adding +-1.6ppm N per week. This is next to nothing. Should be dosing about that much per day. Especially with that light and good CO2 with a 1.0 pH drop or more.
APT is a generally lean All in One but many love it due to the fact your dosing for slower growth / slow down growth and to also dose lean so as to bring out the so called colors.

So what do you suggest?

Maybe try something more rich? Like masterline 1 and 2 or all in one golden?

 

[BigWave]

From what Ive seen Masterline golden is a great product. Never tried it due to not being able to get it here in the USA.
You could always just double or tripple your dosage of APT right now and see how it goes. Yes you'll use more product. If you start seeing better results look to other products such as Masterline or Tropica Specialized. Or take it with a grain of salt and keep using APT.
Remember it takes time to see results. So dosing today you will see results in 3-10 days. The mobile elements especially the mobile traces youll see results 1st. For old growth, itll never grow back so have to chop and replant the tops and toss the bottoms.
Im also inclined to say reduce your CO2 so its not quite so much.

 

[Burr740]

You could just double up on the APT for now and see what happens Edit: posted same time ^ hah

Your plants are definitely lacking...something. Even the Tiger Lily is struggling to maintain its older leaves

 

[riioKen]

@Burr740 @BigWave ok, I'll double the dosage of apt, but I'm a bit afraid of losing even more red (which are still "lacking" right now) due to increasing of no3. Considering that rotala prefer a leaner approach, shouldn't I be worried?

 

[BigWave]

Only a very few plants actually color up with nitrate limitation. Even most Rotala species do not with only a select few that do.
List all your plants and we can help you better.

 

[Burr740]

The best color comes from fat happy plants.

 

[Freshflora]

Absolutely correct.
Now if your weekly accumulation is only 7ppm NO3 you are only adding +-1.6ppm N per week. This is next to nothing. Should be dosing about that much per day. Especially with that light and good CO2 with a 1.0 pH drop or more.
APT is a generally lean All in One but many love it due to the fact your dosing for slower growth / slow down growth and to also dose lean so as to bring out the so called colors.

There’s a miscommunication going on here. OP’s “accumulation” is not 7ppm. OP’s dosing APT complete which adds about 7ppm NO3 weekly typically split over 4 doses or every day dosing.

I think your tank needs some serious maintenance love before making any decisions on dosing IMO. Can we see a picture of the whole tank?

One thing I will say which is in agreement with what the others have said so far is that standard Rotala rotundifolia is not a plant you should be growing if you are looking for a red plant. Does it color up with nitrate limitation? Yes, but it’s not a red plant. Rotala Blood Red “SG” is a better alternative which does not need nitrate limitation to color up.

Also IMO definitely do not back down on CO2. With where you’re at with your PH there’s no reason to and reducing could only cause negative effects.

 

[riioKen]

There’s a miscommunication going on here.

True, I try to clarify a bit.

APT 3 gives 7ppm weekly of no3, but I have tropica soil and feed my fishies. I add around 1ppm per day of no3, at the end of week, when I do 50% WC, usually, I have around 5-10ppm of no3.

I think your tank needs some serious maintenance love before making any decisions on dosing IMO.

I do weekly maintenance that consists in:
- 50% wc
- when doing WC, I vacuum the gravel with a Turkey baster
- scrape the glass when needed.

The plants that I'm growing are:
- rotala macrandra
- rotala Wallichi
- rotala h'ra
- rotala Orange juice
- nymphea red lotus
- crypts Pink flamingo (not anymore, it melted)
- Montecarlo
- limnophila hippuridoides
- hygrophila lancea araguaia
- egeria densa
- Althernathera reickii.

I've posted the photos (I have just did WC)

 

[Freshflora]

True, I try to clarify a bit.

APT 3 gives 7ppm weekly of no3, but I have tropica soil and feed my fishies. I add around 1ppm per day of no3, at the end of week, when I do 50% WC, usually, I have around 5-10ppm of no3.



I do weekly maintenance that consists in:
- 50% wc
- when doing WC, I vacuum the gravel with a Turkey baster
- scrape the glass when needed.

The plants that I'm growing are:
- rotala macrandra
- rotala Wallichi
- rotala h'ra
- rotala Orange juice
- nymphea red lotus
- crypts Pink flamingo (not anymore, it melted)
- Montecarlo
- limnophila hippuridoides
- hygrophila lancea araguaia
- egeria densa
- Althernathera reickii.

I've posted the photos (I have just did WC)

Any idea on what led to the algae so far? Did you start with a lot of light and cycling with plants + not many water changes? Curious because GSA is a lot less common for lean dosing tanks.

If you want to increase lighting at all, I would recommend increasing lighting time before lighting intensity with where you’re at now with only 5hrs. If f I were you I’d go up to 5.5 or 6 and see how things do for a week or two, but personally I wouldn’t mess with intensity before you’re at least at 6-7 hours of lighting.

 

[riioKen]

Any idea on what led to the algae so far?

No idea, since I started using APT3 (at recommend dosage), I always had GSA and hair algae on old growth, probably it was due inconsistent CO2 (at beginning I was using an in tank diffuser, now Inline diffuser from co2art).

I tried different light condition (at beginning 7-8h at 50-60-70%, fast growth from plants and algae, both GSA and hair algae) seems that 5h is working a bit better.

not many water changes

Never changed my WC routine, 50% every Sunday, never missed one.

Maybe go up to 5.5 or 6 and see how things do for a week or two.

I plan to do this week 70% for 5h, if everything is fine, I'll increase to 5:30h and then till I reach 7h at 70%.

Curious because GSA is a lot less common for lean dosing tanks.

I'm dosing 1ppm more of po4 with APT3, so regular dose of apt 3 + 1ppm KH2PO4, and seems to help for not let GSA growing.

 

[riioKen]

This week I have increased the light to 70% (from 60%). I'm dosing again apt 3 as suggested (without extra po4) and wait for a week or 2 (usually mid week I start to see GSA on glass without the extra po4, if yes, I'll start to dose again po4). I have bought Masterline 1 and 2 (I heard it's lean and nice for reds), plus masterline Golden. I'll start to dose golden next week or 2 week from now (I plan to do a heavy trim session due to how bad the plants look on older growth, so I get rid of them).

I have a question btw. My tap water is hard (around 10gh and kh8), tropica soil lower kh to 3. When I do a 50% WC, the kh swing to kh4-5 for 1 day, then it decrease again to 3. This swing can lead to this problems?

@Freshflora @Burr740 @BigWave

Sorry for pinging, I have added more info in the last 2 posts.

 

[Burr740]

The KH swing isnt a problem unless you were growing some truly soft water species like Syn and Tonina.

The 10 GH is pretty high. That means your Ca and/or Mg is pretty high. Can you find out how much is Ca and how much is Mg? Over here folks can usually find those numbers by googling their city's water quality report.

But lets say you have 60-70 ppm Ca, this might prevent you from being able to use a low dosing routine because all nutrients have a relationship with certain others. Too much of one thing often inhibits the absorption or utilization of something else. Without getting into a lot of specifics, both macros and micros may need to be higher to better match your Ca and Mg.

Your plants in general look rather pale, which backs up this theory assuming your CO2 is good. I would dose the APT at 2x for 2-3 weeks. Then you may want to switch to the APT EI version which is stronger

 

[riioKen]

Your plants in general look rather pale

Exactly, they are really pale and I never figured out why.

But lets say you have 60-70 ppm Ca

My tap water has 63mg/l of Ca and 8.6 mg/l Mg (last published analysis is 5 month ago)

Edit: have just received the new Water analysis total hardness is 22f so around 12gh, there isn't the detail of Ca - Mg but considering that last time it was 63 for Ca and 8.6 Mg, probably the ratio will not be much different.