Journal SkaleyAquatics Re-attempted Dutch

[Art]

I always thought that pearling was caused by oxygen or some gas escaping the leaf/stem surface through tiny fissures. This could be due to some sort of damage (clip a stem or leaf and you will see bubbles flowing out eventually). Or, it could mean that the tank has been supersaturated with oxygen (by healthy plant growth). The bubbles result from the water not being able to absorb any more.

I guess my thinking is that unless damaged, bubbles are a sign that plants are healthy and producing a high amount of oxygen during the photoperiod. I never really thought about using it as a gauge though.

I've had healthy plants that don't produce pearling. Does anyone know whether all plants should/would pearl?

My question was more to think about using pearling as a secondary sign in addition to the 1 pH drop or the green drop checker. For example, if you know you are providing enough fertilizer and you have a 1 pH drop or more but you are not seeing pearling, should you increase lighting until you do?

 

[SkaleyAquatics]

My question was more to think about using pearling as a secondary sign in addition to the 1 pH drop or the green drop checker. For example, if you know you are providing enough fertilizer and you have a 1 pH drop or more but you are not seeing pearling, should you increase lighting until you do?

I think that could be possible, but if you are monitoring pH via drop checker or pH drop then pearling is just secondary. Its something to look for but you should definitely be using a more true and tried method.

 

[GreggZ]

I don't know that they are exclusive. I'm still looking for a 1+ pH drop. But who's not to say that plants pearling is not a good indicator of co2 levels? Also visible bubbles on plants can tell how well water circulation is in your tank, can it not? If only some plants are pearling then you might not be evenly distributing co2 across the tank.

Yes pearling is a good indicator of good CO2 levels.

But keep in mind that some plants are notorious pearlers. Cabomba Furcata and Mayaca Fluviatilis are a couple of great examples. Then some pearl very little regardless of the conditions.

For example I just walked over and took this pic of my Mayaca F.



So it's not really telling you anything about CO2 being circulated in the tank. And honestly I just don't believe much in the circulation theories. I have taken readings all over my tank, high, low, front, back, middle, using a good quality calibrated probe the pH is almost exactly the same no matter where you measure it.

I look at like like dropping some food coloring in the tank. You can't keep it in one place. It dissolves and spreads evenly pretty quickly. My tests have shown the same for CO2. Once it's dissolved the levels are pretty much the same everywhere.

 

[Yugang]

Yes pearling is a good indicator of good CO2 levels.

Probably more so an indicator of good O2 levels? Oversaturated O2 is caused by vigorous plant growth, and the condition for that amongst others would be good CO2 and light?

I am a couple of weeks into my experiment with 10-15 ppm CO2, and believe it would be a mistake to conclude on this or that too early. I should give it perhaps a couple of months to assess how it works for me. The tank so far does much better than I had expected. What does surprise me is that I have seen my plants pearling....

 

[SkaleyAquatics]

Yes pearling is a good indicator of good CO2 levels.

But keep in mind that some plants are notorious pearlers. Cabomba Furcata and Mayaca Fluviatilis are a couple of great examples. Then some pearl very little regardless of the conditions.

For example I just walked over and took this pic of my Mayaca F.

View attachment 5779

So it's not really telling you anything about CO2 being circulated in the tank. And honestly I just don't believe much in the circulation theories. I have taken readings all over my tank, high, low, front, back, middle, using a good quality calibrated probe the pH is almost exactly the same no matter where you measure it.

I look at like like dropping some food coloring in the tank. You can't keep it in one place. It dissolves and spreads evenly pretty quickly. My tests have shown the same for CO2. Once it's dissolved the levels are pretty much the same everywhere.

Yeah I wanted to get this out but wasn't sure how to word it. I appreciate the input. I actually see very little pearling in the main tank but see it much more in the farm tank and I believed it was 100% due to plant species. In my experience it has seemed that pearling is more common in needle like leaves. Those seem to be the first ones to pearl.

I have come around on the circulation theories as well. I have tested water in different places with a calibrated pH meter as well and noticed no difference between pH levels in those spots. When Art asked that I had not tested in different spots. Since then I had and should have updated my reply to include this information. I have lots of theories but have not had the experience or data to back it up yet...

Probably more so an indicator of good O2 levels? Oversaturated O2 is caused by vigorous plant growth, and the condition for that amongst others would be good CO2 and light?

I am a couple of weeks into my experiment with 10-15 ppm CO2, and believe it would be a mistake to conclude on this or that too early. I should give it perhaps a couple of months to assess how it works for me. The tank so far does much better than I had expected. What does surprise me is that I have seen my plants pearling....

I could believe this. Here is an example, last Wednesday when I did my water changes I did not have enough reserve water to fill the farm tank and hence the hang on back filter had a 3-4" drop from the return water. So water was exposed to much more air in the current than normal. I noticed pearling in plants that I had not seen before but interestingly enough, plants that I normally saw pearling in we either not pearling or not to the extent they were before.

 

[GreggZ]

Probably more so an indicator of good O2 levels? Oversaturated O2 is caused by vigorous plant growth, and the condition for that amongst others would be good CO2 and light?

I am a couple of weeks into my experiment with 10-15 ppm CO2, and believe it would be a mistake to conclude on this or that too early. I should give it perhaps a couple of months to assess how it works for me. The tank so far does much better than I had expected. What does surprise me is that I have seen my plants pearling....

I have no doubt you could see some plants pearling with 10-15 ppm CO2 in the water column. Pearling in general means photosynthesis is vigorous and that the water column is saturated with O2.

So how does it get that way? In simple terms as plants photosynthesize they take in CO2 and expel O2. When O2 reaches saturation pearling begins. But as usual there are other factors other than CO2 contributing to O2 saturation, like temperature, flow, light level, plant mass, and surface agitation. So it can vary a lot from tank to tank.

But still in very general terms pearling is related to CO2 levels. The more CO2 the better photosynthesis which in turn creates more oxygen.

In my tank I did some experiments years ago with pearling. If I cranked up the lights and CO2 I could induce massive tank pearling. Turn both down and pearling diminished. For me somewhere in the middle seems to work out best.

 

[Art]

What does surprise me is that I have seen my plants pearling....

To me, this means that your plants are getting what they need to photosynthesize vigorously and they are the type that does pearl somewhat easily.

I have come around on the circulation theories as well. I have tested water in different places with a calibrated pH meter as well and noticed no difference between pH levels in those spots.

I've done this as well and found the same thing. I also had the benefit of discussing this topic with a friend that studied fluid dynamics. He confirmed that in our confined aquariums, we should not see any material differences in terms of items dissolved in the water column.

Since then, I only focus on enough circulation in the water column to manage detritus getting to the filter and minimizing the water zone around leaves.

In my tank I did some experiments years ago with pearling. If I cranked up the lights and CO2 I could induce massive tank pearling. Turn both down and pearling diminished. For me somewhere in the middle seems to work out best.

This is exactly my point. Pearling shouldn't be a goal. It is a byproduct sometimes and is one of the clues you can use to tell you things are going well.

 

[SkaleyAquatics]

So I have been pretty lax on things the past few weeks. I haven't even updated my weekly diary I use to keep thoughts down as well. I was able to go back to weekly water changes as I have completely tackled the green/cloudy water in both tanks. I will update on Sunday after I do my water changes for the week. This is the first time I'll be out long enough that someone else has to dose the tanks, or even feed the fish. This weekend I plan to finalize the plants and the layout for the AGA. But here is a few pictures I have snapped this week. I actually ran out of co2 in the farm tank on 8/23/24 and was not able to get a new tank until Monday, plants did fine though I also noticed that my rotala h'ra was getting more red without the co2 but has now reverted back to more green. I found that quite strange.



Just 2 different types of ludwigia inclinata. Very happy how things are developing in the farm tank.

 

[FrankZ]

I also noticed that my rotala h'ra was getting more red without the co2 but has now reverted back to more green. I found that quite strange.

I notice this with bacopa monerii as well. In my low tech tanks it gets a nice bronze/almost pink blush but in the Dutch with co2 it is the typical light green even when it’s up close to the light.

I wonder if it’s a growth speed and light response. Since the plant isn’t growing as fast it produces more of the color pigments (can’t recall the proper name atm) to protect the leaves from excess light. It’s like the plants knows the leaves will be shaded soon by new growth so it doesn’t bother wasting resources on the pigments.

 

[SkaleyAquatics]

Well this was a nice surprise!


After over 2 weeks of it budding it finally bloomed. Aponogeton Longiplumulosus

 

[SkaleyAquatics]

I am still seeing some curling in hygro's in the farm tank, not as bad in the main tank. I have some more plants arriving from @Burr740 early this week as I try to nail these last few plants for the main tank. Numbers have primarily stayed the same as previously but have upped the light about 20% yesterday on the main tank yesterday to see if the bacopa sp colorata will get those beautiful pink hues. I am waiting to cut back the street until the AGA competition has been announced as that should allow a good time for it to peak. Otherwise tank has been running smoothly. I really should get the reactor onto the main tank but its hard when things have been running so smoothly. The filter is due for a cleaning and will plan to install the reactor at the same time.





The farm tank needed a massive cutback this week. The numbers are practically the same as the main tank with the only difference being light intensity. I am debating upping the macro numbers after next water change. I've had more aerial roots and some transparent older leaves. The plant mass is quite a bit more in this tank then the farm tank.


Overall I am pleased with how things are growing. I am going to be setting up a 8gal cube shortly that will be a replicate to @sudiorca aquariums, no co2 high light, low temp, low kh. I am setting this up in anticipation for next years double feature at my club to put in the show.

 

[Unexpected]

Just caught up on your journal. It’s interesting the Hygro is twisting. I myself, can’t keep my Ludwigia from getting wavy. Did you see a noticeable change when you increased Ca? When I upped mine to 35, they flattened out but the curl/wavy came back. Not sure what I’m doing wrong.

 

[SkaleyAquatics]

Just caught up on your journal. It’s interesting the Hygro is twisting. I myself, can’t keep my Ludwigia from getting wavy. Did you see a noticeable change when you increased Ca? When I upped mine to 35, they flattened out but the curl/wavy came back. Not sure what I’m doing wrong.

Yes and no. The corymbosa and saliciflola straightened out but what is supposed to be 53b and saliciflola 'purple' are still having this issue even at 50ppm ca. The difformis and balsamica never had an issue. I'm about to switch the corymbosa and saliciflola tanks as I want the big leaf from corymbosa in the main tank as I am now lacking a big leaf plant, I'll report back on that when I have made that change.

I doubt that you are doing anything wrong. have you tried cutting the tops and keeping the bottoms so new growth can happen? I am surprised you are seeing it on Ludwigia, the only issue I have had with any of the Ludwigia's I am keeping is with the white. I don't think its getting enough light as the farm tank is extremely crowded currently but that will soon change.

 

[ElleDee]

Well this was a nice surprise!

View attachment 6011
After over 2 weeks of it budding it finally bloomed. Aponogeton Longiplumulosus

What is your experience with this plant going dormant? I haven't had it for too long and I recently snapped off a developing inflorescence because I wasn't sure from my reading if flowering was linked to dormancy or not and I'd prefer to deter it as long as possible even at the expense of flowers. More precisely, I was busy and didn't have a long time to dig into it, so once my first stab at research came back mixed I made the executive decision to remove it and figure it out later.

It's such a cool plant though! I can't wait to move into a tank that has enough space.

 

[Unexpected]

Yes and no. The corymbosa and saliciflola straightened out but what is supposed to be 53b and saliciflola 'purple' are still having this issue even at 50ppm ca. The difformis and balsamica never had an issue. I'm about to switch the corymbosa and saliciflola tanks as I want the big leaf from corymbosa in the main tank as I am now lacking a big leaf plant, I'll report back on that when I have made that change.

I doubt that you are doing anything wrong. have you tried cutting the tops and keeping the bottoms so new growth can happen? I am surprised you are seeing it on Ludwigia, the only issue I have had with any of the Ludwigia's I am keeping is with the white. I don't think its getting enough light as the farm tank is extremely crowded currently but that will soon change.

I just removed it . No time to fool around with nonsense!

 

[SkaleyAquatics]

I just removed it . No time to fool around with nonsense!

Haha I have been here.

 

[SkaleyAquatics]

What is your experience with this plant going dormant? I haven't had it for too long and I recently snapped off a developing inflorescence because I wasn't sure from my reading if flowering was linked to dormancy or not and I'd prefer to deter it as long as possible even at the expense of flowers. More precisely, I was busy and didn't have a long time to dig into it, so once my first stab at research came back mixed I made the executive decision to remove it and figure it out later.

It's such a cool plant though! I can't wait to move into a tank that has enough space.

So I have only had my specimen since the beginning of July, but so far its grown like crazy in my conditions. It has not gone dormant yet. I just checked Kasselmann book regarding this and there is no mention of the flower being tied to dormancy. From what she says is that the wet season causes dormancy in this type locale and when water levels are higher with less light and more stagnant water. So I bet as long as it has enough light and flow on it, it might not go dormant but that's just my theory on the topic.

The first flower that is pictured I cut off as well to try and collect the seeds, however the flower I currently have I ended up using a toothbrush in an attempt to pollinate the flower and I am going to let the flower die and drop seeds in the aquarium. This was a suggestion from Tom Barr.

Longiplumulosus is in the same type locale as madagascariensis, so this also makes me believe it wont go dormant since as far as I know madagascariensis does not go dormant in aquaqriums.

I agree that it is a very cool plant. I'm actually extremely curious in Aponogeton's now because of it as this is the first one that I have kept. I have an empty 180gal that I plan to dedicate to rosette's, rhizome, and bulb plants. Since it is much more spacious then I can provide in the 40 gallon's. I really want a madagascariensis but I decided to hold off as the store that had them had one in a display and it was absoletely a massive plant. Leaves were probably 2'(60cm) in length with a 4-5"(10-12cm) width across. It was impressive.

Sorry for the ramblings. I absolutely love aquatic plants more than fish at the moment.

 

[Mr.Shenanagins]

what is supposed to be 53b

Did you get this plant from APF by any chance? @FrankZ and I both got 53b from them and it looks EXACTLY like what you have. If you look at the beginning of my journal you’ll see what I mean. The curling never ends and I truly don’t know exactly what hygro it is, but APF will vehemently deny it’s anything but 53b.

 

[FrankZ]

Did you get this plant from APF by any chance? @FrankZ and I both got 53b from them and it looks EXACTLY like what you have. If you look at the beginning of my journal you’ll see what I mean. The curling never ends and I truly don’t know exactly what hygro it is, but APF will vehemently deny it’s anything but 53b.

Actually I specific bought the hygro salicifola purple from APF so it looks like I was the only one who got what they ordered. LOL @Mr.Shenanagins you bought 53B but really got the salicifola purple.

Either way, it’s is a curly mess and I haven’t found one single picture of it submerged where it isn’t curly. Only emersed does it seem to flatten out, from what I’ve seen anyway. I have it various tanks and it curls to varying degrees. It is definitely worse in my Dutch (zero alkalinity 35/7 Ca/Mg). I have it there now behind my meta.

The least curling is in my tap water low tech Acara tank. High-ish calcium probably around 50-60 ppm and 150 ppm alkalinity. It still curls and twists but isn’t nearly as large.

When I had the hygro paratiwota, which I think is a corymbosa variety, it didn’t curl or do anything funky like the sali purple. Actually none of the hygros I’ve tried curl like this one. It think it’s just the plant.

 

[SkaleyAquatics]

Did you get this plant from APF by any chance? @FrankZ and I both got 53b from them and it looks EXACTLY like what you have. If you look at the beginning of my journal you’ll see what I mean. The curling never ends and I truly don’t know exactly what hygro it is, but APF will vehemently deny it’s anything but 53b.

I did indeed. It looks different to what I bought before from them as well. I may just end up tossing it and order some 53b from Joe.

Actually I specific bought the hygro salicifola purple from APF so it looks like I was the only one who got what they ordered. LOL @Mr.Shenanagins you bought 53B but really got the salicifola purple.

Either way, it’s is a curly mess and I haven’t found one single picture of it submerged where it isn’t curly. Only emersed does it seem to flatten out, from what I’ve seen anyway. I have it various tanks and it curls to varying degrees. It is definitely worse in my Dutch (zero alkalinity 35/7 Ca/Mg). I have it there now behind my meta.

The least curling is in my tap water low tech Acara tank. High-ish calcium probably around 50-60 ppm and 150 ppm alkalinity. It still curls and twists but isn’t nearly as large.

When I had the hygro paratiwota, which I think is a corymbosa variety, it didn’t curl or do anything funky like the sali purple. Actually none of the hygros I’ve tried curl like this one. It think it’s just the plant.

the salicifolia purple I also got from them as well as 53b and both of these look identical underwater for me. Both curly like crazy. They did look differently in emersed form. I might have gotten salicifolia from them as well.