Problems with melting Anubias and Buce

[Noahspapa]

Hello. I have a seasoned 29 gallon tank that persistently experiences melting of Anubias and occasionally Buce as well. I’ve included a photo of the tank newly planted with anubias and Buce and what remains today. To clarify, the tank had been established for a couple months before adding the Anubias and Buce. The anubias completely melted to the point of being a clump of superglue attached to the driftwood. I removed that. Might I have used too much glue? You’ll see some of the Buce is still there and looks good to my eye. The Anubias came from multiple sources. The Buce (melted and remaining) was tropica.

I also seem to always end up with Java fern turning black over time.

I’d like to try adding Anubias or Buce back to the spots I attempted previously. Seems like I’m just repeating what I did previously and hoping for new results?

Tank runs on an oase 350T with matrix & purigen at 75 deg. Seiryu stone drives KH up to 6 and GH up to 12. No ammonia or nitrite. Heavily stocked. Fish are healthy. Twinstar S series light currently on 50%; formerly 75%. Running CO2 at roughly 50 ppm based on Hanna test kit. Was probably running more like 20-30 ppm back then. UNS contrabase and controsoil. Use a Sentra doser 4 times daily with APT3 per package instructions. 50% water changes weekly with RO water remineralized with APT Sky although I may have been using the MORE remineralizing product back then. Not sure when I switched.

Need to do better journaling ! (Seriously)

Please let me know if you have any suggestions on approaching this differently this time.

 

[Naturescapes_Rocco]

Great tank! Both Buce and Anubias are so slow to grow, perhaps the melting IS in response to changes that you made weeks or months ago.

The best thing to do with epiphytes is to come up with a system to keep the water column as stable as possible, not only through the weeks, but across the months too. If you can do that, you'll get amazing new growth after the old stuff either melts, or you trim it off.

I do wonder about water changes with Seiryu stone. I once built a 100cm paludarium with $600 of DIY-acid-washed seiryu stone:

The constant raising of hardness and KH from the stones made it really difficult, but I was able to grow java fern and anubias but it was so much more difficult than even in high tech setups.

I'm not saying it's only the seiryu giving you trouble, but it might be a factor. More likely, I'm sure the plants are still very slowly recovering from whatever was happening to them previously.

So, just do your best to narrow in on some water conditions you like. Find the best way to keep them there, and give the plants a few weeks. If there isn't new growth, something is definitely wrong.

 

[Noahspapa]

Thank you!

 

[Noahspapa]

So I think part of what you’re pointing out is my tank raises the Kh and gh up to what it does and then I empty half of it and pump in a half tank full of water that has a Kh of less than 1 and a Gh of 6? So one idea is to eliminate what’s causing the hardness to rise within the tank - or - I suppose I could remineralize what I put back in up to match the tank?

 

[Naturescapes_Rocco]

So one idea is to eliminate what’s causing the hardness to rise within the tank - or - I suppose I could remineralize what I put back in up to match the tank?

Sure, I think this could help. Keeping your water column as similar -- before and after WC -- is often really good for slow growers like Anubias, java fern, buce.

I see lots of low-tech beginners actually have great success with fish-filled, no-water-change tanks, because the conditions actually remain more stable than with weekly WC.

For us doing weekly WC, it's important to understand how that WC affects nutrient levels and how to get things back to where they were with the "remineralization" or "recovery dose" step. That's part of why I designed my nutrient accumulation calculator to help visualize the peaks and troughs of our tanks, and to find ways to keep them a bit more stable.

Plants can handle some change -- that happens in nature. They can't handle frequent large swings of anything -- CO2, GH, NO3, Micros, etc.

I don't know the specific issue with your melting buces, but I find that epiphyte plants that have no access to soil nutrients are a great indicator of water column conditions. If conditions are constantly changing and fluctuating, they won't do well.

The world's largest tank, the Florestas Submersas (no longer around I believe) you can imagine the nutrient uptake is insane every day:



They have automated testing machines that monitor NO3, PO4, K, etc every day (maybe multiple times a day? I haven't been able to learn the specifics) and dose solutions to increase/maintain PPMs accordingly. The tank is thousands upon thousands of gallons; they don't do weekly WC. Instead they have machines and auto-dosers to help them out.

For us with regular tanks, understanding the math of how to keep our water columns balanced and consistent is a real struggle. The larger the WC, the more you will have to "recover" dose it, but the more flexibility you get in water parameters.

For you I'd say just keep things stable if you can, and if not, get rid of the seiryu stone! I now do acid-testing on every rock type I use to make sure it won't react/dissolve into my aquarium, since the experience I had with seiryu stone wasn't good due to the constant KH and pH raising effect it has, especially on soft RO water.

 

[Noahspapa]

Great tank! Both Buce and Anubias are so slow to grow, perhaps the melting IS in response to changes that you made weeks or months ago.

The best thing to do with epiphytes is to come up with a system to keep the water column as stable as possible, not only through the weeks, but across the months too. If you can do that, you'll get amazing new growth after the old stuff either melts, or you trim it off.

I do wonder about water changes with Seiryu stone. I once built a 100cm paludarium with $600 of DIY-acid-washed seiryu stone:
View attachment 11384
The constant raising of hardness and KH from the stones made it really difficult, but I was able to grow java fern and anubias but it was so much more difficult than even in high tech setups.

I'm not saying it's only the seiryu giving you trouble, but it might be a factor. More likely, I'm sure the plants are still very slowly recovering from whatever was happening to them previously.

So, just do your best to narrow in on some water conditions you like. Find the best way to keep them there, and give the plants a few weeks. If there isn't new growth, something is definitely wrong.

Thanks again. What you’re saying makes perfect sense. I totally missed it. Great tanks BTW!

 

[Phish Tank]

You might also want to check the calibration on your doser, especially since you are dosing so many times a day. I know my dosing pump is less accurate at teenie tiny doses.

Only other thought I had was since you are also getting black spots on java fern, maybe check how much potassium you are dosing. Both anubias and Java ferns are potassium hogs.

 

[Noahspapa]

Good idea! I’ll do that in the AM. I looked up the data on my APT3 and attached it. I honestly don’t know if this is an appropriate level of potassium or not but am assuming it is. I’m told I can’t measure it. I have the doser set to 3 ml per day.

 

[Jeff Miotke]

Curious if you decided to continue using a ph controller on your co2 system? With varying Kh values which directly correlates to pH due to the carbonates leaching from the stone you will have corresponding fluctuations in CO2. i know my seiryu tanks swing kH from 4 to 8 and back to 4 after water change every week. but my CO2 concentrations remain at 35ppm with my injection via the horizontal reactor because it is independent of pH values.

Hope that helps.

Also I have had dozens of successful layouts with anubias, ferns and buce with loads of seiryu stone with similar kH fluctuations. IME these plants are easier to have success with than my systems with kH <1.

 

[Noahspapa]

Hi Jeff. The 29G still has the ph controller and inline diffuser. I do finally have the new 120P up and a week and a half into cycling. The 120P has the small acrylic ARC yugang reactor and it is doing a great job. I have it running to test it and I measure 40 ppm of CO2 using the Hanna test kit, drop checker is light green.

I’d be glad to switch over to the horizontal reactor on the 29G. Any suggestions on the unit I would use for that? The 29G is roughly 30” x 12” or 360 sqin versus the 48” x 20” or 960 sqin of the 120P. I can call ARC and ask. I like that I can actually talk to someone there.

Question - do you run the co2 into your reactor 24/7? Or do you turn it on only for the photoperiod daily?

Some additional info on my original note - the problem I have had is primarily with Anubias.I think over time I’ve put 20 pieces of smaller ( nana, nana petite, pinto) in my tanks and they have all melted. I’d say a 100% failure rate. With Buce maybe 50% failure, and a 100% rate of Java fern eventually turning black. Multiple suppliers. Multiple tanks - the 29G with seiryu, the 20G with dragonstone and a 10G with no stone. I know I’m doing something wrong - just don’t know what it is. Would love to stop doing whatever it is!

I picked up a piece of Anubias from my LFS yesterday, and have some plants, including more Anubias & Buce coming this week and will try again. I know I’m using more CO2 now since you enlightened me on that and that has made a huge positive difference across all tanks. I have the lights lower and I think I’ve learned to keep the Anubias out of high lighting areas and to use less glue. I am checking my doser calibration and think I’ll switch over to dosing once daily versus four times daily. I’ll call ARC today on the horizontal reactor. I also need to do better journaling and take better photos! I intend to post an entry on the 120P tank hopefully before the weekend is over.

Thanks for all the help scapecrunch team!

 

[Jeff Miotke]

Just fyi for all other readers. I have been assisting in DMs for a while now and have a lot more info than is posted here.

Changing the method of co2 injection has its pros and cons however my point is that the pH controller is inherently creating an unstable CO2 concentration. To clarify, Using a pH controller on a tank with a fluctuating Kh concentration will result in fluctuating CO2 concentrations as there is a direct relationship. Therefore set a steady injection throughout the day to achieve a stable CO2 concentration to reach the target value. For me this is usually around 35ppm. instead of turning CO2 on and off via the controller to target a pH value.

That said if you want a horizontal reactor for this size tank to probably have to diy. But you could look into vertical reactors. But diffusers work well in small tanks like this and I still use them because of space constraints.

To answer the CO2 question on when I inject CO2. With reactor I turn on 3 hours before lights on and turn off 1 hour before lights off. This provides 35ppm during the entire photoperiod.

 

[techman81]

That said if you want a horizontal reactor for this size tank to probably have to diy. But you could look into vertical reactors. But diffusers work well in small tanks like this and I still use them because of space constraints

I was going to mention the same about the ARC reactor. I'm a fan of ARC and have made numerous purchases but for tanks 90cm and below, even the small reactor is overkill. It would be great if they would come out with a scaled down version of the small acrylic reactor, but until then, DIY is the better option.

 

[Naturescapes_Rocco]

I was going to mention the same about the ARC reactor. I'm a fan of ARC and have made numerous purchases but for tanks 90cm and below, even the small reactor is overkill. It would be great if they would come out with a scaled down version of the small acrylic reactor, but until then, DIY is the better option.

What about just running it at the lowest power? Or not using overflow mode, and instead use regulator mode?

 

[techman81]

What about just running it at the lowest power? Or not using overflow mode, and instead use regulator mode?

Sure, setting it at lowest co2 output is ok, but it still takes up so much physical space. Even in my cabinet for my WB 3620 it's a tight fit, especially when using silicone tubing that collapses if bent too sharply.

 

[Noahspapa]

You might also want to check the calibration on your doser, especially since you are dosing so many times a day. I know my dosing pump is less accurate at teenie tiny doses.

Only other thought I had was since you are also getting black spots on java fern, maybe check how much potassium you are dosing. Both anubias and Java ferns are potassium hogs.

Just an fyi that I changed my doser settings on all three of my tanks to one dose per day and at 10 am staggered by 5 minutes per tank so I can check them. I did check them today in a 5 ml test tube and they all looked good. Not sure if/how it was working in the smaller dose. Thanks for your input.

 

[Koan]

for tanks 90cm and below, even the small reactor is overkill. It would be great if they would come out with a scaled down version of the small acrylic reactor, but until then, DIY is the better option

Is your tank a standard 29 gallon, 30" long x 12" wide?

A DIY reactor sized for this surface area to create a stable 1.5° pH drop would use a 10" long section of 2" PVC pipe, plus your choice of assorted fittings.



Here is one very detailed example parts list you can follow,




or substitute with your own!

 

[Noahspapa]

Yes - standard 29G, 30 x 12. Thank you for the detailed info. I’ll make a trip to Lowe’s!

 

[Koan]

If you want clear piping you'll have to special order it:

2 Inch Diameter Clear PVC SCH40 Pipe, Choose Your Length

2 Inch diameter Clear PVC pipe (Schedule 40) PVC pipe is measured by the nominal inside-diameter (ID), not the outside-diameter (OD). Pipe has an approximate ID of 2.047 inch and an approximate OD of 2.375 inch, per PVC Schedule 40 Specifications. As with all extruded pipe, the inside diameter...

clearpipe.com

Another special order option is a John Guest push fitting for attaching the CO2 line



Otherwise just search the forum for "DIY Yugang", lots of examples of what people have done!

 

[Noahspapa]

Thank you. After my reply I noticed you had all the suppliers identified in the table. Thank you!

Also - I believe these calculations are based on surface area and so I would think this would work for my 20 gallon long tank as well. Agreed?

 

[Koan]

Per the Yugang calculations, it depends on what PH drop you want , per what ppm of CO2 you're shooting for.

Calculate the reactor dimensions

Summary:

• Calculate the Tank_Surface_Area (tank length * width)
• The target Reactor_Surface_Area between water and the gas pocket in the reactor (reactor length * reactor width) is proportional to the Tank_Surface_Area (for any given pH drop target).
• For a pH drop target 1.5, the Reactor_Surface_Area is estimated at Tank_Surface_Area / 17.7
• For a pH drop target 1.2, the Reactor_Surface_Area is estimated at Tank_Surface_Area / 35.4
• For a pH drop target 0.9, the Reactor_Surface_Area is estimated at Tank_Surface_Area / 70.8

Exact PPM CO2 is not as important as stability, but a 1.5° pH drop is generally considered approximately 30+ PPM CO2, which is optimal for strong plant growth. A 1.2° drop may give approximately 15 PPM or medium plant growth, etc.

Slow growing plants like Anubias need the higher level of consistent CO2, fast growing stem plants have more flexibility and range.

What is most important for plant health, especially with the melting you're seeing, is that this level of CO2 concentration in the water be as close to exactly the same, all photoperiod / every photoperiod, as possible . That's what this Yugang reactor will do for you.