One -Two Punch Candidate?

[*Ci*]

Hi all, I am having a algae problem - definitely bba , plus some kind of hair and/or staghorn filaments. I’m afraid that the affected plants are going to slowly die off, so I am wondering if my tank is a good candidate for a ‘one -two punch’.

I will try to include as many details about the tank as I can think of.

84.5 g set up in Nov, 2022, intended to be low light, no c02.

2x Current Satellite Pro + LEDs set to red 75%, green 75%, blue 7%, white 50%. 8hr photoperiod with 15min ramp up and down on each end. The tank is 24” deep. There are a lot of tannins in the water from mopani wood.

2x Oase Biomaster Thermo 850. I replaced one of the sponges with a fully cycled sponge from my other tank’s canister to help jumpstart the cycle.

Plants include anubias, Echinodorus, various crypts, aponogeton, java fern, bolbitis, vallisnaria, weeping moss, and some other moss (can’t remember which).

I change water once a week @ 30% with tap water that has low chlorine (no chloramines, I use sodium thiosulphate to dechlorinate) and zero kh and gh . I adjust kH with baking soda to 4 dkh , and gH with calcium chloride and magnesium sulphate (2:1) to 5 dgH.

I am using the rotala butterfly low light/weekly recommendations for adding:

kn03 - 10ppm

k2s04 -10ppm

csm+b - 374 mg (which gives me a target of .1ppm fe)

I have shaken the dickens out of my stock of csm+b powder in the hope that it has mixed better. I have Seachem Iron as well, but have not used it as my Fluval iron test kit shows a consistent .5 ppm.

I have between 5-10ppm phosphate in my tap water.

Mistakes and possible problems:

- I started off with 6 mollies and the seeded media and showed no ammonia for a 3 weeks, so I slowly added more fish each week. I found some hard to find cories one week and got all 12 of them. Had an ammonia and nitrite spike and had to add SAFE and I also bumped up the calcium chloride to 8dgH to protect against nitrite. All fish survived. gH was reduced gradually over the next few water changes.
- In both of my tanks I only tested nitrate occasionally right before a water change and it consistently read zero. I assumed that my plants were using up all the nitrate during the week, so I kept bumping up the kn03 bit by bit, and still zero. About 2 weeks ago, I decided to calibrate my kit and mixed up a stock solution of 40ppm. Test kit showed zero! A defective kit! (Nutrafin - it was not expired). I ordered a new kit (Salifert) and it showed my tanks as being 100ppm+. I did 2 large water changes and got it down to around 20ppm. Shrimp were dying in my other tank, and bba is exploding in this tank.
- I don’t know why I started water changing only 30% weekly - did I figure that out on rotala butterfly? I don’t know! When I had a high tech tank with classic EI dosing I did 50% - do I need to go back to 50% for such a low, once a week dose?

So, I think my problems were/are stability in my water parameters combined with new tank syndrome. I have my ferts and salts stabilized now, ammonia and nitrite consistently at zero, and no more stocking increases. I only just added a second Biomaster filter last week, so I have better flow and distribution through the spraybars. There is a decent plant mass, and room for more but I don’t want to add any until the algae is in control.

I think I could reduce my lighting intensity and/or photoperiod. I have not tested PAR, but these lights seem pretty low powered to me.

I could also take out the wood and spray the bba with h202 or Excel, which has worked for me in the past on bare wood, but I am afraid of killing all the moss now, plus all the other plants have this thread like stuff on them.

I could try a blackout.

I could start injecting low amounts of c02 which was suggested to me as a compromise between low and high tech (but I prefer not to)

Or I could try the one-two punch and start with a clean slate. My only hesitation is harm to livestock. I don’t have anything particularly sensitive, I don’t think - angels, cories, bristlenosed plecos, gold gourami, mollies, danios, female bettas and apple snails (I can remove them to my other tank)

I guess I am just looking for some hand holding to get me through this. If anyone has an opinion on what I should try, or some insight into something I’ve missed as the cause, or that I could improve upon, please, please comment.

It would be much appreciated!

 

[Art]

Hi and thank you for posting this. One of our missions is to help with this type of issue which we all face at some time or another.

I'm very limited with my time this morning but will give you my thoughts a little later today.

 

[*Ci*]

Thank you, Art, I appreciate it.

 

[Immortal1]

Some initial thoughts...
Cleaning and water changes. I have had to deal with black beard algae more than a few times and yes, the peroxide does help to knock it back some. But, why did it show up in the first place. Anyway, not sure if you have seen any of the 2hr Aquarist's articles so I links 2 of them that might initially be helpful for this situation. As with Art - I will likely bounce back to this thread when I have more time.
Removal
Flow

 

[Art]

So, I think my problems were/are stability in my water parameters combined with new tank syndrome.

So I think this is right. In my experience, BBA shows up when there is tank instability coupled with dissolved organics at an excessive level for your tank. I'm not one of those people that feel that CO2 is a cause of this. I've seen it with CO2 and non-CO2 tanks. Can CO2 instability lead to overall instability, yes. However, like in your case, CO2 is not the issue because you're not adding any.

Bottom line, your plants are not healthy. Some of what you mentioned above is why. What you need to do first is arrive at a fertilization/maintenance routine that works for your tank and that provides what your plants "should" need to do well. Then keep that consistent.

As I've never done a non-CO2 tank, I'm going to copy @sudiorca who seems to know a lot about non-CO2 tanks to see if there is something to add here.

Here's what I would do if I were you:

1. Lighting - it would be great to get a par reading if you can borrow a meter from someone. However, I don't think this is the problem. I don't see any other algae and the plants don't seem to be showing signs of low light. The plants you have seem to be low light anyway.
2. Water changes - I would up it to 50% minimum and vacuum the substrate.
3. Fertilizer - seems to be OK to me.
4. Trim any older or dying leaves.

I would likely try the one-two punch method. However, only do it when you are comfortable you've done the above and have a solid routine to maintain stability. Also, know that your moss and ferns will likely take a hit with it.

If you do it, make sure you do a good water change afterwards. I would then continue to add Excel daily as per the bottle instructions. You may also spot treat some of the plants as well such as the anubias.

I have no doubt you will beat this but it will take time and patience. However, you will probably come out of it a better aquatic gardeners for it.

 

[*Ci*]

Thank you @Immortal1 and @Art for your thoughts.

To sum up - Tank is only 3 months old and has gone through up and down periods of high ammonia, high nitrites, high gH , and super high nitrate as well as a fast stocking rate, probably too much fish food and a substrate change. Kind of obvious in retrospect … >rolleyesatself<

Regarding the recommendations from Art:
1. Lighting - I’ve tried to find a PAR meter to borrow or rent unsuccessfully. I do have a paid version of the Photon app though, but I’ve run out of 22lb paper to use as a diffuser (supposed to be important to have the correct weight). I will get that tomorrow and take a reading.

2. Will do 50% WC starting tomorrow. I do gravel vac, but maybe not as much as I should. A lot of moss has fallen on the ground and I was hoping it would form a carpet of sorts. In reality, it just looks messy, lol! I will vacuum it all up.

3. Ferts. Will stick to the current low dosages.

4. Trim leaves - I have been trimming the most algae ridden leaves weekly, however, at this point, the moss on the logs looks in such rough shape that I think I will just remove it all and replace it with fresh plants. I chose the wrong moss anyway as weeping moss doesn’t cling to wood on it’s own (hence why it is all over the ground) and I dislike the way the fishing line looks that I have tied it on with. I will choose a different moss this time around. Suggestions welcome.

While I have the wood out, I will scrub it and spray with HP or Excell (or both!), along with the anubias. Maybe this will all be enough to turn the tide. I’ll give it a few weeks to settle in and then re-assess. Sounds like a nice, conservative plan.

 

[GreggZ]

Wow you've got a lot going on in that post!!

My first thought is that you diagnosed a lot of your own problems. New tank, freshly cycled, early ammonia spike, NO3 through the roof, parameters all over the place, etc. And I like the way you deduced your NO3 test was off. More people should make a reference solution before making decisions based on their readings. Some kits are notoriously wrong. I think you will be happy with the Salifert, it's the best one I have seen so far.

In general you have a tank that is filled with plants that don't require much light at all. I looked up that light and found this which might help you a bit. With two of these lights you might be generating more PAR than you think. Especially near the surface where you have a good deal of plants. IMO with a new tank it's best to start on the low end of light until things stabilize, and then start increasing light to see how things react.



In your Build Thread you list 45 fish in this tank. While most are smaller varieties that is still a lot of fish. Which I'm guessing means a good deal of feeding. This is especially tough for a new tank which is freshly cycled and not mature. I am guessing this could be part of the BBA problem. Lot's of fish and feeding = lots of waste and dissolved organics. BBA loves that. Stepping up the water change percentage might help here.

I've never used that filter but it appears by the specs two of them is good deal of flow. I think I saw in a separate post that the returns are via spray bars? Many times BBA and other algae tend to be worse right where the flow is the highest. Have you noticed any correlation? Those plants near the surface must be getting a good deal of flow (and light!) and maybe it's too much. In my tank I drilled out the holes on my spray bars to create a more gentle laminar flow. Might be something to consider.

And in general this is a new tank. It takes time for a tank to become really stable and mature. So part of this is growing pains. If it were me I would be turning down the light for a while, performing 50% water changes twice a week for a few weeks, lightly vacuuming the gravel to pick up any detritus, if possible reducing the velocity of flow...........and I hate to say it but I would consider reducing the fish stock a bit. 12 Cory's and 2 BN's create a lot of waste just by themselves, not mentioning the rest of the fish. Of course adding some CO2 would make things easier, but I understand that is not really in your plans.

Good luck and I look forward to seeing how things go from here.

 

[*Ci*]

Thank you for your input @GreggZ . Seriously, I have learned more from reading the accumulated threads on ScapeCrunch over the last few days, than in the years I’ve been on *other* forums, and I am so grateful for all you guys who created this space.

I was unsure if those PAR charts from the manufacturers were accurate, and I kept thinking in terms of PAR at substrate level, forgetting that so much of the plant mass was higher up. Another newbie miscalculation! Yes, there is significantly more algae on the moss and upper leaves, but also some on the slow growing crypts at the bottom.
I also thought that 2 light fixtures did not double par, but only give better coverage on a wide tank. Maybe only increase par where they overlap? Totally wrong?

If I do two 50% changes per week, how would I then adjust my dosing schedule? Or just keep it to once a week as usual?

I have larger diameter, longer spraybars with slightly bigger holes than the bars that came with the Biomaster Filters. One set points straight down and the other straight across the surface about an inch down, with a section pointed 45 degrees up for surface ripple. No plant leaves sway in the tank, so I don‘t feel that any are in the path of a particularly high flow. I have been considering adding an inline UV that I have kicking around, but was hesitant to restrict the flow - maybe I should just go ahead and not worry about it?

I do have c02 equipment that is not being used right now - would you advise using it on this tank and in what capacity? I would consider it, I guess, if I couldn’t make the tank work otherwise.

Again, thank you all so very much for you help. I feel very welcomed here.

 

[GreggZ]

If I do two 50% changes per week, how would I then adjust my dosing schedule? Or just keep it to once a week as usual?

When you remove 50% of the water, you remove 50% of the nutrients.

So yes when doing twice weekly water changes you want to dose more to bring those levels back up. It has do with accumulation. Folks would be better off thinking about dosing in terms of how much they provide between water changes, not weekly.

So let's say you were dosing 10 ppm NO3 weekly. When doing twice a week changes dose 10 ppm between water changes to keep levels up.

If you want to know more about this here is a link where I discuss accumulation in my tank build. But be forewarned you might need a cold compress on your forehead after reading it!!

Journal - Greggz 120G Rainbow Fish Tank - Part Deux!

I hope everyone who has joined is enjoying the forum. Over time my plan is to post summaries of many of the discussions from my old long running thread that I kept on another site. Keep in mind these posts are my thoughts on a particular subject based my experience. Others may have other ideas...

scapecrunch.com

 

[klibs]

With your setup I think you have very low plant mass / demand (they are all slow growing plants that do fine in low light) and lots of livestock that produce lots of waste. I would significantly reduce the light intensity since your plants really don't need. You are on the right track by doing more water changes to remove waste/nutrients more often. Honestly with that amount of plants/livestock I don't even think you need additional nutrients at all. If you do dose nutrients I would suspect you need very little.

I would use HP/excel/manual removal to kill off a good amount of your existing algae and then try to significantly reduce the lighting intensity. With those plants you need very little light to keep your plants alive/grow slowly so there's no reason to push it.

If you can do it, raising the light fixture above the tank is a great way to spread the light out so it's not so intense at the top of the tank. I think this can help a lot in addition to simply dimming your light.

FWIW whenever I start to get algae in my tank I immediately clean things up, do water change and siphon out waste, and reduce lighting slightly while I get things under control. This has been working great for me. Continuing to march forward with higher light levels and trying to fix everything else to "work" with high light is silly. Just immediately reduce the light levels and your life will be a lot easier. Light is always going to be the primary driver of growth in the whole system

 

[MrMuggles]

kH with baking soda to 4 dkh

I could be wrong but I think this may contribute to instability. If you want to add KH and keep it stable, something like crushed coral is preferred. However, the consensus seems to be that only a small buffer is needed, if any, when doing weekly 50% water changes. Unless you have some sensitive hardwater fish.

 

[*Ci*]

I could be wrong but I think this may contribute to instability. If you want to add KH and keep it stable, something like crushed coral is preferred. However, the consensus seems to be that only a small buffer is needed, if any, when doing weekly 50% water changes. Unless you have some sensitive hardwater fish.

Well, I can’t decide about kH - my source water has zero.
In my koi ponds and goldfish aquariums I’ve always buffered the water with baking soda to kH 7-8 and have no problems with stability (ie. after a week, at water change time, the pond kH is still at 7-8, and I only have to adjust the new incoming water). This is what I am familiar with and used to.

When I had ADA aquasoil and co2 in my other planted tank, I felt very uncomfortable with zero kH and very low pH values. guess I don’t really understand the dynamic in a planted tank. When I removed the aquasoil, co2 and set both tanks up as low tech, I simply went back to what I think of as good for the fish.

I don’t know what instability using baking soda would be causing, my tests right before a water change show 4dkH, then I adjust the incoming water and show 4dkH after the change. It stays stable throughout the week.
Would it be better to lower that value further (or to zero) and why?

 

[MrMuggles]

Would it be better to lower that value further (or to zero) and why?

I would like to know as well, someone here advised me to ditch my buffer completely but I don't know the reasoning actually. I maintain low KH but keep coral in the sump so that if I get hospitalized or something and water changes stop for a few weeks, the buffer can sustain itself to protect fish. but it sounds like your method works for you too

 

[JPog]

Well, I can’t decide about kH - my source water has zero.
In my koi ponds and goldfish aquariums I’ve always buffered the water with baking soda to kH 7-8 and have no problems with stability (ie. after a week, at water change time, the pond kH is still at 7-8, and I only have to adjust the new incoming water). This is what I am familiar with and used to.

When I had ADA aquasoil and co2 in my other planted tank, I felt very uncomfortable with zero kH and very low pH values. guess I don’t really understand the dynamic in a planted tank. When I removed the aquasoil, co2 and set both tanks up as low tech, I simply went back to what I think of as good for the fish.

I don’t know what instability using baking soda would be causing, my tests right before a water change show 4dkH, then I adjust the incoming water and show 4dkH after the change. It stays stable throughout the week.
Would it be better to lower that value further (or to zero) and why?

Did you have problems with your fish at zero KH? I've never seen any correlation with that and most plants prefer zero or near zero KH.

 

[MrMuggles]

Did you have problems with your fish at zero KH?

When i removed the crushed coral completely from my sump, all my dwarf neon rainbowfish started huddling in a corner a few days later. I re-added the bag to my sump, with less coral, and the fish went back to normal after a day.

Correlation != causation, this is just a data point I wanted to share. I'm still not certain what they were upset about but this was my only plausible explanation.

 

[*Ci*]

During the period with no buffer and co2, I lost some fish and others survived. Hard to know the exact causes. A school of glass catfish gradually died off over a period of, say a month, otos never survived long in my tank, other small fish I would put in and gradually just not see them anymore - kuhli loaches, 1” baby whiptail cats, a few other fish I can’t remember.
On the other hand, a school of black neons stayed healthy and I still have them 2.5 years later, plecos are fine, guppies and honey gauramis lasted as well.

 

[*Ci*]

Just as an update:
Almost 4 weeks later and the Osaka 320 is doing well. I had taken out all the wood, moss and anubias and sprayed all with 3% h202 and then with Excell. I replaced all the moss with fresh plants.
I reduced the lights slightly, started 50% changes weekly and kept a closer eye on nitrates.
Now the moss is growing and there is no sign of any new algae. Older leaves on the crypts, vals and aponogeton are being gradually pruned away along with the last of the old algae.

I’m very relieved that I didn’t need to do anything more drastic.

Also, I finally have all the parts gathered to add co2 to both my tanks with Dwyer flow meters to help dial it in. Just waiting on some extra co2 hose, as I did not have quite enough to reach. My plan is to start out very lean, in keeping with low light and undemanding plants.

 

[GreggZ]

Well, I can’t decide about kH - my source water has zero.

Most people would love to have source water like that. In general most plants prefer very soft water. In fact many people go to great lengths to lower their dKH by going to RO water.

With the exception of very few most fish will do great at zero or low dKH. I have run my tank at zero dKH for years and my Rainbowfish are healthy, colorful, and long lived. There are old wives tales about pH crashes, but that is almost always related to poor maintenance and dirty tanks. In a well kept tank it simply isn't a worry.

That being said if you want to raise dKH you should use K2CO3 or KHCO3. They do not cause instability. In fact they are the best way to keep levels stable. I would not use crushed coral. The release is uncontrollable and that makes it difficult to keep levels stable which can cause issues.

And good to hear things are improving in your tank. The CO2 will also help as well.

Here is a link to a good article by my friend Dennis Wong regarding low dKH/pH tanks. My tank is featured there when I was running 1 dKH. Since that time I decided to stop fighting the buffering of the substrate and just went to zero dKH.

Is low pH in tanks due to aquasoils/softwater a concern?

Is low pH a concern in planted aquariums? Does the low pH caused by CO2 injection or aquasoil affect livestock or bacteria in the planted aquarium? Should I use buffers to raise the pH? This article examines why pH drops in aquasoil tanks and what should be done (or not done).

www.2hraquarist.com