New Substrate affect on algae growth.

[Pepere]

Both of my CO2 injected tanks were virtually free of visible algae until I replaced the substrate in both of them on the weekend of November 2nd…

Since then I am pinching off dozens of leaves daily.. I get green dust on the glass, hair algae on some plants, black beard on others, staghorn on some..

I have continued weekly water changes of about 60-70% of the water. Am dosing PPS Pro daily. Co2 at ph drop of 1. I have Fluval 207s and they were not disrupted in the swap. Shut them off and floated media in a bucket of tank water with airstone while doing the changeover…. O ppm ammonia and nitrite, nitrate hovers around 10 ppm.

Now I did change to PPS Pro daily dosing from EI soon after changing substrate in an effort to get my Rotala Rotundifolia Orange Juice to color up more impressively, (it hasnt) and to tanp down a Green Dust algae issue which it seemed to help some…. Fir about 6 weeks I assumed old growth was sacrificing and figured I would grow out of the problem, yet I am pinching off leaves now that has grown since the fert change was instituted…

Plants seem to be growing well and in good form….

I would have thought the established canister filters would have offset newness of substrate. (1/2 inch Safe T Sorb in mesh bags on base with 2-3 inches BDBS on top….

I did have Purigen in filters before the reset which I dont now. A blown out seam in a mesh bags on base caused a Purigen snowstorm that precipitated the substrate replacement…

My non injected tanks are humming along with no visible algae in them albeit much slower growth…. None of them have Purigen either and only see monthly water changes…

So…. Do you think substrate maturation is playing an outsize factor is my rumbling Algae issues coming on up to 8 weeks out from substrate replacement?

Is the lack of Purigen a minor or major factor? Am I missing something?



Just finished a midweek water changes to both tanks. I figured I would try doubling water changes per week to see if that helps. Pinched off all algae infested leaves, thinned trimmed 60-70% water changes while irrigating substrate with turkey baster and hoovering up debris clouds…

 

[Pepere]

Here are some closeup views next day..

I pick off all I can see and 24 hours it gets replenished.. would that the plants be so fecund.


Here you can see the Ranunculous having areas being taken over.


And the Rotala.

More Ranunculous infestation.



And the leaf tips and margins of my Hygrophila corymbosa



Does anybody have thoughts as to what is going on here?

 

[Art]

First, @Pepere, I’m sorry you’re going through this. It’s tough and we’ve all been there. So, hang in there and things will improve in the long run.

Second, I don’t have a clear answer for you other than to say that I’ve also experienced the same whenever I’ve significantly disturbed the substrate either by full replacement or partial.

My thoughts:

• The substrate ecosystem is a big unknown to us but I more and more think that it is much more important than we’ve been thinking. Substrate maturity implies a balanced ecosystem of bacteria, fungi, microorganisms, etc that provides for stability. When you remove it and put in completely new substrate, this stabilizing factor is gone and now the plants must adapt to a new environment. Sadly, algae does that much better than higher plants.
• BBA on leaf edges is an indication to me that the plants is not doing well or is going to morph those leaves. If the leaf was healthy and in tune with the environment, it wouldn’t be leaking the things that are attracting the algae nor would it be able to take hold there.
• Green hair or dust algae comes from these disturbances and is temporary.
• It seems that the bacteria in the filters is not enough. What you removed was not found in your filters.
• Potential solution: focus on providing a stable environment. Perhaps consider dosing vodka to increase bacterial populations in the new substrate. If you have a friend with mature substrate, borrow a cup of it to inoculate yours.
• I don’t think Purigen has anything to do with this.

A counter argument to my thoughts is the fact that @GreggZ and Marian both replace their entire substrate every few years with seemingly no issues.

Perhaps it’s just us mere mortals that have these types of issues?

 

[Pepere]

Potential solution: focus on providing a stable environment. Perhaps consider dosing vodka to increase bacterial populations in the new substrate. If you have a friend with mature substrate, borrow a cup of it to inoculate yours.

Well, I have another non CO2 tank with BDBS with no algae issues.

Would I simply sprinkle some on top of existing substrate in numerous places?

Any details or direction to sites that describe the vodka dosing plan?

Do the fish swim sideways for a bit? Does the aquarist imbibe to drown his sorrows?

 

[Phish Tank]

@Pepere , If those green uplift tube are attached to UGF plates, maybe the substrate change removed more beneficial bacteria than you thought, and it’s taking its own sweet time replenishing. If they aren’t UGF attached, then you should definitely start drinking, I mean dosing a high quality vodka.

 

[Pepere]

those green uplift tube are attached to UGF plates, maybe the substrate

The are attached to ugf. But I do have a fluval 207 canister as well.

My tap water has just about 1 ppm ammonia in it chronically as I am rather close to the injection site. Ie utilities do not add “chloramines” to the water. The inject chlorine and ammonia to the water and chloramines form in the mains…

After I do a 60-70% water change I do have detectable ammmonia in the tank that is metabolized to undetectable ammonia and undetectable nitrites within hours, so the fluval 207 does have a decent colony..

Most of what I could find online about vodka dosing refers to doing so in saltwater reef tanks, not freshwater planted tanks.

Does anyone have a link to something germane to planted tanks dosing?

 

[Pepere]

I just added a Fluval internal filters today to each tank to add a little supplemental flow. I filled them with activated carbon. I figure they will soak up organics for afew days or so and then become good surface area for bacteria to grow.

In a month or so I can bury it into my BDBS…..

If nothing else it gives me the illusion of doing something useful while I wait…

 

[vinzphua]

Sharing 2 big bouts of algae breakouts I encountered. Might give you some insights. I am, by no means, insisting this is the fix. After 20 years, I'm still learning how to keep my tank low-algae, but these 2 incidents gave great insights.

In the past I have had bad algae breakouts on my hardscapes and tank walls, but negligible on my plants. These are usually resolved by addressing system issues like flow, cleanliness, etc.

These 2 bouts were different. Algae were growing on the plants as well. Specifically GDA on the leaves. I tried many things over months, but to keep it short, I eventually narrowed it down to unhealthy plants. The plants looked like they were growing fine (albeit with algae on their leaves), but there were some signs of deficiency such as increased leaf drop, mild stunting on a few leaves.

Once I addressed the nutrient deficiencies, signs of recovery was seen immediately. GDA stopped growing on new leaves and GDA growth on hard surfaces dropped by 90%. BGA slowed. Symptoms went away. Full recovery took 2 weeks.

From these 2 bouts, I surmised the following for myself:
- Algae on plants = unhealthy plants. Meet the plant needs, algae reduces.
- Methods like EI and PPS are great starting points, but each tank is different. Many factors affect the nutrient requirements. Look at the deficiency signs and "listen" to the plants. Address what they are telling you. Every small sign is a clue.

Hope that helps.

 

[SkaleyAquatics]

As @Art says it stinks to be going through this and we have all dealt with it so keep at it. Here are my thoughts:

New substrate is potentially playing a role in your algae outbreak. With you hitting 8 weeks it should be about at its maturation state especially with cycled media. I remember hearing that most of your beneficial bacteria is located in the substrate and very little is in the filter.

But I also see some other potential issues that could be compounding the algae issue. 60-70% water changes with PPS approach of lower dosing numbers could be playing a larger role. As @vinzphua says here:

- Algae on plants = unhealthy plants. Meet the plant needs, algae reduces.

My assumption is that the larger water changes is causing a bottoming out of nutrients in your tank, which is leading to unhappy/unhealthy plants. While I understand that you swapped from ei to pps to reduce GDA maybe there is a middle ground to allow healthy growth while preventing bottoming out. I have just accepted the fact that I have to keep the glass clean of GDA and the few minutes each week it takes me to scrap it while dosing ei levels has not been a concern(but to each their own). The other issue being inconsistent co2, I have noticed that stable non-fluctuating co2 levels limits algae growth, this is both true to non-co2 tanks(hence no algae issues in your low tech tanks) and co2 tanks. While you are recording a pH drop of 1. How often are you testing? @Unexpected has a sensor that lets him monitor pH drop and without this there is no guarantee we have consistent co2 levels. Not saying you need to go out and buy a few hundred dollar sensor but just my view on the matter.

Based on the algae I am thinking your issues is related to nutrient levels and not co2 levels in this case. Inconsistent co2 levels ime leads to string algae and inconsistent growth in your plants which does not seem to be occurring in your tank.

 

[Pepere]

But I also see some other potential issues that could be compounding the algae issue. 60-70% water changes with PPS approach of lower dosing numbers could be playing

I front load a double dose on the pps pro dosing after water change to allow daily dosing to basically maintain and replenish what is consumed each day.

Nitrate levels hover around the 5-10 ppm mark as tested prior to daily dosing.

After daily dosing

Daily dosing yields NPk

2 ppm nitrates
0.2 ppm phosphate
2.66 ppm potassium

I dose 5 mls of macro into the 29 gallon tank. Maybe 25 gallons of water after deducting for substrate and equipment…

 

[Pepere]

As @Art says it stinks to be going through this and we have all dealt with it so keep at it

Well, I am looking at it as an opportunity for growth and learning…

 

[Pepere]

While you are recording a pH drop of 1. How often are you testing?

A heck of a lot more than I was when everything was sailing along Algae free…

I am testing ph with Sera test kit about 3 times a week and also degassing samples and testing base ph with CO2 degassed…

Early on I attributed algae growth to change of fertilization as the plants reprogrammed for new conditions…. It was older leaves… but currently what were newly sprouted since change are also developing algae and being pinched off…

Just finished adding new purigen bags to the canister filters…. The heck with making 1 change and wait 2 weeks to see changes…. I really dont much care to know exactly what the silver bullet will be to have success. So long as the changes I make tend toward being beneficial, I dont mind making a few of them together…

 

[SkaleyAquatics]

A heck of a lot more than I was when everything was sailing along Algae free…

I am testing ph with Sera test kit about 3 times a week and also degassing samples and testing base ph with CO2 degassed…

Early on I attributed algae growth to change of fertilization as the plants reprogrammed for new conditions…. It was older leaves… but currently what were newly sprouted since change are also developing algae and being pinched off…

Just finished adding new purigen bags to the canister filters…. The heck with making 1 change and wait 2 weeks to see changes…. I really dont much care to know exactly what the silver bullet will be to have success. So long as the changes I make tend toward being beneficial, I dont mind making a few of them together…

Okay pH should be good then.

I am not familiar enough with PPS Pro's method and adjustments as I have not personally used that dosing method. But I feel like you might be bottoming out nutrients still. Maybe @HardeeParty can chime in on what is water change/maintenance schedule looks like.

Personally what I would do is take all the plants out, trim only fresh tops and toss everything else and then perform a thorough substrate cleaning and a 50% water change then replant. It's a process and takes time but that is what I've had to do in the past and this helps the algae issue.

 

[Pepere]

am not familiar enough with PPS Pro's method and adjustments as I have not personally used that dosing method.

After daily dosing today.


My tanks Phosphate testing shows 2.0 ppm


Daily dosing yields NPk

2 ppm nitrates
0.2 ppm phosphate
2.66 ppm potassium


So weekly:
N 14, P 1.4, K 18.6

EI iirc I was dosing 30,10, 30….

Personally what I would do is take all the plants out, trim only fresh tops and toss everything else and then perform a thorough substrate cleaning and a 50% water change then replant.

I have done that before, and it may come to that, but, not yet…

 

[Pepere]

Overall it doesnt look that bad after cleanup for the day….

 

[Pepere]

2 weeks ago, my 17 gallon fish bowl sphere suffered a blowout…

Sigh.. transferred fish and plants, cleaned up….

I then decided to transfer my well cycled BDBS into my 2 29 gallon tanks adding roughly 3/4 to an inch on top of existing new substrate.

I also added new purigen bags from a different manufacturer. These bags have the seams sewn and not glued like the prior ones. Finally, I also re did the calcs on Ca and Mg to add to myvery soft Tap water.

I have no idea which intervention helped, but 20 days after my last post, Algae conditions are greatly improved..