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Meditations on the Fundamental Nature of Dosing (was: Some Random Questions)

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1. In a journal on another forum someone is only dosing 2ppm N a WEEK. Note, not NO3 but N. It was a high tech tank with bright light and CO2. Lean dosing method it was called. His plants looked great. This is new to me, but seems it’s a thing. Is the assumption that given stability, plants will adjust to whatever they are given?

I believe he had some type aquasoil, so some N was coming from that. Once this gives out, will the 2ppm N/week still be enough? Is the misunderstanding here that I’m used to EI method that gives more than enough?

2. I’m looking for a good read on the PPS Pro method. I’ve never known much about it. Does someone have a link?

3. Not a political question. Just informational…. I’m thinking of a complete reset of my tank soon. I might try a different aquasoil. Do you think the prices could pop from tariffs? Its already so expensive. Should I buy something now? Have the prices already been affected? I sort of think that compared to other goods that come to the US, this stuff is such a low volume, that it might be a while before we see any price fluctuation. Its not like containers of aquasoil are arriving to the US daily.
 

This page is a good comparison between pps pro and ei and gives you the nuts and bolts of how…


Ido a modified. I mix up the solutions as designed and daily dose as outlined, but do a 2/3 waterchange weekly and front load back up to roughly what levels would be before water change.

Levels stay awfully stable throughout the week…

Daily dose by and large replenishes prior days consumption.

Dosing daily is more consistent for me.
 
Here's Dennis's take on "nitrate limitation" expressly as a way to push reds in some plants:


"Lean dosing" is related but different :


Comparison with EI:

 
Yep the stuff above is spot on. Many contest aquascapers do this including myself.

Here are some examples of nearly zero detectable N in the water column. These were only run for a few months in this manner and done specifically for pushing the limits for the contest.
 

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Well, rimless low iron tank prices have gone up and are in shorter supply. I imagine aquasoil was already stocked fairly well in US warehouses before the tariff calamity hit.
Well, that sucks. I was looking at getting a bit larger tank. Ever since @Mr.Shenanagins made THIS post, I've been wanting a 90p. I have no idea if this is still a good deal. This is all his fault. :LOL:

I didn't even know you could get aquariums like this on Amazon.
 
Skip past all the links, and then it goes into all of the details on pps-pro.

This page is a good comparison between pps pro and ei and gives you the nuts and bolts of how…

Here's Dennis's take on "nitrate limitation" expressly as a way to push reds in some plants:

Yep the stuff above is spot on. Many contest aquascapers do this including myself.

Here are some examples of nearly zero detectable N in the water column. These were only run for a few months in this manner and done specifically for pushing the limits for the contest.

Thanks everybody! I'm not looking to change anything right now. I was just curious to read more. I can find people mentioning these things, but not a tutorial or anything.

So, I'm guessing the answer is yes, once the N from the aqasoil runs out, Lean Dosing has issues?
 
1. In a journal on another forum someone is only dosing 2ppm N a WEEK. Note, not NO3 but N. It was a high tech tank with bright light and CO2. Lean dosing method it was called. His plants looked great. This is new to me, but seems it’s a thing. Is the assumption that given stability, plants will adjust to whatever they are given?
In my large 150p tank (which I need to update the journal for!) I started with nearly $700 of ADA Amazonia V2 aquasoil substrate, one of the most nutrient-dense substrates in this hobby. SEVEN HUNDRED DOLLARS.

The tank grew extremely well with limited water column dosing, but the tank is SO densely planted with fast-growing plants, and I'm blasting nearly 180PAR at the substrate level with 40ppm CO2.

Every 2 weeks, I pull out almost a few POUNDS of plant mass in trimmings/cuttings alone. All that mass needs to come from somewhere, and it's not just water and CO2!

With the lean water column dosing (nutrients coming from the aquasoil) my reds were RED, especially on the Rotala Blood Red.

After about 4-5 months, the $700 worth of aquasoil began stop providing enough nutrients. Plants were still alive, but I was seeing lots of NO3 deficiency and PO4 deficiency too. I started weekly frontloading of my Macros after 50-70% water changes.
I believe he had some type aquasoil, so some N was coming from that. Once this gives out, will the 2ppm N/week still be enough?
At the 6.5-ish month mark, my aquasoil seems to be severely depleted. If I'm not dosing heavily in the water column, my plants immediately stunt.

Currently, I measure weekly consumption levels at around 20-30ppm NO3, 3-4ppm PO4, and around 20-30ppm K.

Not only wouldn't 2ppm N be enough per week, it literally wouldn't even be enough per DAY for my tank.

Plants follow Leibig's Law of the minimum. You can't bake a cake without at least 1 amount of every ingredient. As long as you provide 100% of the necessary nutrients (NPK,Ca,Mg,Fe,Trace) from aquasoil, root tabs, fish waste, or liquid ferts, you will have algae-free healthy plants with good growth.

I think a lot of people believe aquasoil-based aquascapes have a lifespan of 6-8 months because they seem to have tanks that fail around that time every attempt. This is VERY likely because they started with rich aquasoil and lean ferts that grew plants well, but didn't understand how to handle the transition with nutrients as their aquasoil petered out. The only thing that matters in this hobby is making sure no nutrients ever reach zero in your tanks, whether through root tabs, ferts, aquasoil, etc. But, many don't know how to measure/observe/handle the changes.

I definitely did not understand this for YEARS. I was in the camp of "Every 6-8 months I finally lose the algae battle, and I'm happy to start a new scape anyway". Once I started EI dosing in my tanks (even with all the expensive aquasoil) it changed my entire perspective.

Currently I dose both of my high-tech tanks every sunday after ~70% water changes. I dose the new 70% fresh RO water around 26-6-25 ppm NPK, with daily CSM+B micro dosing at 0.1ppm Fe every day. If I don't have a large fish load, I usually need to increase the NO3 dosing to 30ppm or more every week, or I will literally have none left in the tank by the end of the week due to plant consumption.

Sorry for the long winded hijack, but this is critical information I wish was more widespread in the hobby!
 
In my large 150p tank (which I need to update the journal for!) I started with nearly $700 of ADA Amazonia V2 aquasoil substrate, one of the most nutrient-dense substrates in this hobby. SEVEN HUNDRED DOLLARS.

The tank grew extremely well with limited water column dosing, but the tank is SO densely planted with fast-growing plants, and I'm blasting nearly 180PAR at the substrate level with 40ppm CO2.

Every 2 weeks, I pull out almost a few POUNDS of plant mass in trimmings/cuttings alone. All that mass needs to come from somewhere, and it's not just water and CO2!

With the lean water column dosing (nutrients coming from the aquasoil) my reds were RED, especially on the Rotala Blood Red.

After about 4-5 months, the $700 worth of aquasoil began stop providing enough nutrients. Plants were still alive, but I was seeing lots of NO3 deficiency and PO4 deficiency too. I started weekly frontloading of my Macros after 50-70% water changes.

At the 6.5-ish month mark, my aquasoil seems to be severely depleted. If I'm not dosing heavily in the water column, my plants immediately stunt.

Currently, I measure weekly consumption levels at around 20-30ppm NO3, 3-4ppm PO4, and around 20-30ppm K.

Not only wouldn't 2ppm N be enough per week, it literally wouldn't even be enough per DAY for my tank.

Plants follow Leibig's Law of the minimum. You can't bake a cake without at least 1 amount of every ingredient. As long as you provide 100% of the necessary nutrients (NPK,Ca,Mg,Fe,Trace) from aquasoil, root tabs, fish waste, or liquid ferts, you will have algae-free healthy plants with good growth.

I think a lot of people believe aquasoil-based aquascapes have a lifespan of 6-8 months because they seem to have tanks that fail around that time every attempt. This is VERY likely because they started with rich aquasoil and lean ferts that grew plants well, but didn't understand how to handle the transition with nutrients as their aquasoil petered out. The only thing that matters in this hobby is making sure no nutrients ever reach zero in your tanks, whether through root tabs, ferts, aquasoil, etc. But, many don't know how to measure/observe/handle the changes.

I definitely did not understand this for YEARS. I was in the camp of "Every 6-8 months I finally lose the algae battle, and I'm happy to start a new scape anyway". Once I started EI dosing in my tanks (even with all the expensive aquasoil) it changed my entire perspective.

Currently I dose both of my high-tech tanks every sunday after ~70% water changes. I dose the new 70% fresh RO water around 26-6-25 ppm NPK, with daily CSM+B micro dosing at 0.1ppm Fe every day. If I don't have a large fish load, I usually need to increase the NO3 dosing to 30ppm or more every week, or I will literally have none left in the tank by the end of the week due to plant consumption.

Sorry for the long winded hijack, but this is critical information I wish was more widespread in the hobby!
In my eyes you didnt hijack the post but provided valuable insight. I dont think many understand how crucial fishload plays a role in what you dose.
 
I can get frustrated with dosing debates because there's a lot of comparing apples and oranges. The way people report their dosing varies, water change practices have strong influence on water column concentrations, people may or may not account for nutrients from their substrate/fish load/tap water, lighting and CO2 amounts dictate nutrient demand, as well as plant selection. When you consider how much uncertainty is introduced in how we measure things, it is challenging to fairly compare things. And those are just the "math issues" - we also have language issues. There's no set definition of rich and lean dosing, so while there are definitely folks on the extremes, I would be there are a lot of people in the middle whether they know it or not.

Edited to add: I'm not frustrated with this thread right here, it's just a fraught topic at times.
 
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Edited to add: I'm not frustrated with this thread right here, it's just a fraught topic at times
I'm frustrated because I keep reading through these dosing posts, asking myself, what data in my brain will be dumped to make room for all of this? 🙃
 
Plants follow Leibig's Law of the minimum. You can't bake a cake without at least 1 amount of every ingredient. As long as you provide 100% of the necessary nutrients (NPK,Ca,Mg,Fe,Trace) from aquasoil, root tabs, fish waste, or liquid ferts, you will have algae-free healthy plants with good growth.
You've enlightened me, this is such a simple theory while it takes seeing your post to realize. I've been fighting the algae for the past couple months in my 8 months old tank, and now that I think about it, the algae burst started happening around the half year mark and my plant health has gone downhill as well.
 
You've enlightened me, this is such a simple theory while it takes seeing your post to realize. I've been fighting the algae for the past couple months in my 8 months old tank, and now that I think about it, the algae burst started happening around the half year mark and my plant health has gone downhill as well.
Yeah, I believe this was part of Tom Barr's development of the EI method. If you can only go as fast as your most limited resource, then dose plenty of everything. (within reason of course)
 
The only thing that matters in this hobby is making sure no nutrients ever reach zero in your tanks, whether through root tabs, ferts, aquasoil, etc. But, many don't know how to measure/observe/handle the changes.
I had a question about this. I'm trying to develop a dosing plan for my tank, and I'm grappling with a dose that is enough so that it doesn't go to zero between doses but isn't so much that it causes GDA. I feel like here though, you mean "reach zero" for an extended time and not just the hours to day or so before you dose again.

Sorry for the long winded hijack, but this is critical information I wish was more widespread in the hobby!
As the OP, only I can determine if there was a hijack!!! :D
I think your post is great. I only know EI and no plans to change. I've had tanks with plants for decades, but I've spent a lot of time away from being active in the hobby. To me there is a difference. So I'm trying to brush up on a lot of stuff I've neglected over the years.

Actually as I re-read your post, I have more questions/comments. Maybe we can get @Art or @Koan to break your post out into it's own thread.
 
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I had a question about this. I'm trying to develop a dosing plan for my tank, and I'm grappling with a dose that is enough so that it doesn't go to zero between doses but isn't so much that it causes GDA.
Dennis Wong called GDA the "Aquascaper's Algae", meaning it's the one algae that can still show up (particularly on the glass) when you've balanced your tank's dosing requirements, especially in high-NO3 environments.

I currently scrape algae with my magnetic scraper before each weekly waterchange. I can sometimes go 1.5 or 2 weeks without it, but the glass gets really green.

The easiest way to do this is to split up front loading doses, particularly for KNO3. For example, If my goal is 26-6-35 as the weekly front-loading, I could dose it all on Sunday and likely get some GDA on the glass by the end of the week. Or, I could do 13-3-17 on Sunday, and on Wednesday, for twice-weekly dosing. Levels would technically be more stable and less likely to produce GDA. I don't do this because I'm lazy -- dosing once a week is so damn easy. I don't have any algae -- I mean ANY algae -- in my tank right now with very little maintenance, and very high nutrient levels. The only algae I currently get is GDA on the glass... my bristlenose plecos take care of any GDA on my hardscape.
As the OP, only I can determine if there was a hijack!!! :D
Good, let's keep it going! ;)
I feel like here though, you mean "reach zero" for an extended time and not just the hours to day or so before you dose again.
How long is an extended time? a few days, a few hours? Some plants who have fast metabolisms could either benefit or suffer under limited conditions. I've read from @GreggZ and @Burr740 stores of how plants can bounce-back within hours or days from a nutrient-limited scenario once they started dosing again. If you run out of NO3 by 3pm every day, you're still causing a nutrient-deficient scenario, even if it's not as bad as it could be.

Not too long ago in my experiment tank, I tried "precise daily dosing" via my Chihiros Auto Dosers as an attempt to eliminate GDA from my system entirely. The goal was to keep levels at essentially 1/7th of my weekly front-loading, to keep GDA off the glass, to keep the water column lean, and only supply what was necessary each day. Seemed like a good idea, especially since I was genuinely feeling bored with the success of EI dosing.

It was SO much harder than general "EI" dosing for me. I found that it was way harder to get daily readings on leaner nutrient levels, as the kits aren't as accurate. Is it 5ppm, 2ppm, 0.1ppm?

I had to take readings 2 or 3 days in a row at the exact same time of day to get a visual for trends, because the daily uptake reached near zero each day. VERY quickly I got multiple types of algae; GSA on my older leaves from lack of PO4, pinholes all over my S Repens leaves from lack of K. I found I wasn't very "in-tune" with my tank's health, since the weekly maintenance wasn't as required this time around.

Things like K2SO4 solubility being so low, nutrient accumulation, trusting the auto-dosers to perform accurately every day...

I was dosing about 3.5ppm NO3 per day (26ppm per week) and still got some GDA on the glass. Not as bad as when I front-load one large dose, but it was still present. However, the plants took a serious decline in health and the algae killed me.

I decided: It might be possible to configure some kind of daily dose that provides all the elements our plants need (essentially PPS-Pro dosing concept), but to keep it non-limiting, you have to dose more than what the plants consume, which eventually requires a water change to balance it out... which is already 50% of what the EI method requires. In my mind, all roads lead back to Leibig's law and nonlimiting environments. It's a requirement to grow plants and keep algae at bay, so that should be my priority.

I guess I'd rather have to scrape some mild GDA off my glass once a week for my whole lifetime, while having incredible plant health, growth, and appearance, than constantly fiddle with daily dosing after the experience I just had for the last month 😲

I do theorize that if daily dosing is 7/7 days, and front loading is 1/7 days, the sweet spot is the average of the two: two doses, one up front, and one halfway through the week, to prevent limiting environments without getting too much GDA on the glass.

I'd say whatever you do, keep good records/photos and make sure to share here on Scapecrunch. The discussion is so helpful for so many, I think!
1754526429720.webp
1754526449523.webp
 
In my large 150p tank (which I need to update the journal for!) I started with nearly $700 of ADA Amazonia V2 aquasoil substrate, one of the most nutrient-dense substrates in this hobby. SEVEN HUNDRED DOLLARS.

The tank grew extremely well with limited water column dosing, but the tank is SO densely planted with fast-growing plants, and I'm blasting nearly 180PAR at the substrate level with 40ppm CO2.

Every 2 weeks, I pull out almost a few POUNDS of plant mass in trimmings/cuttings alone. All that mass needs to come from somewhere, and it's not just water and CO2!

With the lean water column dosing (nutrients coming from the aquasoil) my reds were RED, especially on the Rotala Blood Red.

After about 4-5 months, the $700 worth of aquasoil began stop providing enough nutrients. Plants were still alive, but I was seeing lots of NO3 deficiency and PO4 deficiency too. I started weekly frontloading of my Macros after 50-70% water changes.

At the 6.5-ish month mark, my aquasoil seems to be severely depleted. If I'm not dosing heavily in the water column, my plants immediately stunt.

Currently, I measure weekly consumption levels at around 20-30ppm NO3, 3-4ppm PO4, and around 20-30ppm K.

Not only wouldn't 2ppm N be enough per week, it literally wouldn't even be enough per DAY for my tank.

Plants follow Leibig's Law of the minimum. You can't bake a cake without at least 1 amount of every ingredient. As long as you provide 100% of the necessary nutrients (NPK,Ca,Mg,Fe,Trace) from aquasoil, root tabs, fish waste, or liquid ferts, you will have algae-free healthy plants with good growth.

I think a lot of people believe aquasoil-based aquascapes have a lifespan of 6-8 months because they seem to have tanks that fail around that time every attempt. This is VERY likely because they started with rich aquasoil and lean ferts that grew plants well, but didn't understand how to handle the transition with nutrients as their aquasoil petered out. The only thing that matters in this hobby is making sure no nutrients ever reach zero in your tanks, whether through root tabs, ferts, aquasoil, etc. But, many don't know how to measure/observe/handle the changes.

I definitely did not understand this for YEARS. I was in the camp of "Every 6-8 months I finally lose the algae battle, and I'm happy to start a new scape anyway". Once I started EI dosing in my tanks (even with all the expensive aquasoil) it changed my entire perspective.

Currently I dose both of my high-tech tanks every sunday after ~70% water changes. I dose the new 70% fresh RO water around 26-6-25 ppm NPK, with daily CSM+B micro dosing at 0.1ppm Fe every day. If I don't have a large fish load, I usually need to increase the NO3 dosing to 30ppm or more every week, or I will literally have none left in the tank by the end of the week due to plant consumption.

Sorry for the long winded hijack, but this is critical information I wish was more widespread in the hobby!
Thanks Rocco very helpful and thorough as usual! What test do you use for nitrate and phosphate ?
 

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