Lessons learned buying plants for a large build

[Capraquaria]

I spent more hours than I dare admit yesterday finally planting out my 150U (no photos yet, I got a bit absorbed in what I was doing). This morning over coffee I have some thoughts.

The first is someone please start a scaping store with me, a la Horizon or Aquarium Gardens!? I am not anxious to delve into retail, but between hardscape sourcing struggles, and access to fresh healthy plants, this hobby feels more challenging than I remember. It is really frustrating not having a local resource for plants here. Being at the mercy of online vendors, purchasing plants sight unseen, can be an exercise in frustration, and buyer-beware.

I know that packing and shipping is expensive, but so are plants! What on earth is up with live plant shipping practices in the US? Maybe I have watched too many Tropica, Dennerle, or AquaFlora plant unboxings online, but shipped direct from the grower, their plants seem to arrive at their destination in an organized, contained manner, either in trays, or packed in layers. Not that well-packed plants can’t get jostled in shipping, but the number of what had been healthy plants I received tossed loose in a box with upside down cultures in gel (really appreciating the trend toward liquid media for just that reason), or pots literally thrown in bags and smashed together arriving with their leaves torn off, is BS. (I am looking at you specifically, west coast). How on earth is a plant supposed to arrive in good shape when the pots are crushing the delicate leaves and stems of the plant next to it? I think shippers need to spend a day with FedEx/UPS/USPS and see the abuse these boxes have to endure during a journey.

I do now have vendors on my ‘no buy’ list based on plant condition on arrival this past week. I also judge vendors of potted plants based on how wretched the box smells when I open it!

Some plants were smashed to oblivion when I received them, but technically not ‘dead’ so not eligible for a refund. Also not eligible to go in my tank until I wait and see if they survive, and are ‘recovering’ in a tank. Others arrived entombed in algae, or had rotted at the roots in their rock wool and smelled truly awful. Ultimately, I resorted to planting mostly tissue culture plants in my 150U build yesterday. It’s just difficult to get much plant mass that way.

One vendor has taken over two weeks to even ship plants out, and they are supposed to arrive today after being delayed by USPS for two days. Every other order at least arrived before I drained the tank. As they are epiphytes, they will have to wait now until a water change.

In hindsight, I should have started a large farm tank first, to have access to healthy plants on demand, and already CO2 adapted. If you are new, and lurking on Scapecrunch, looking for inspiration, and wondering where to start, build a Dutch-style tank (as it keeps your plants organized), as a farm tank. If you then want to move on to something with hardscape, you will already have robust, healthy, and adapted plants ready to go, and it’s an excuse to have more tanks. Otherwise, the following were my best plant buying experiences for this build.

Aqua Forest Aquarium (AFA) in San Francisco. Hindsight being 20/20 and all, I really wished I had jumped back into the hobby while I was still living in the Bay Area. Everything AFA shipped was in perfect condition on arrival. ADA Bio Mizukusa No Mori plants were pristine. No soup. Nothing broken. Granted, their shipping costs were also the highest, but it’s cheaper than throwing out plants.

My BurrAqua plants were in excellent health, and were packaged great, and I am grateful for having that resource available here on Scapecrunch! If Joe has a plant you are looking for, go for it!

Aqua Rocks Colorado's (ARC) Tropica tissue culture plants were the healthiest Tropica brand plants I received, and I ordered Tropica plants from several vendors. Packed well, and shipped at light speed. Everything from ARC was fresh, vibrant, and healthy.

The Tropica Marsilea hirsuta, and Eleocharis I purchased from someone else arrived as brown rotten soup (those are being refunded). Tropica needs to pay attention to who is vending their plants. It is clear that some are sitting on them way too long, and although Tropica has no control over their vendors, those vendors are acting as Tropica representatives, and it doesn’t look good for the brand when plants arrive rotten. Especially to people new to the hobby. I wonder how many failed, rotten, soupy plants chase new people out of this hobby at the start? I think starting with healthy stock, plants or fish, is important for success in any new setup, rather than it being an uphill battle from the start.

As I probably can’t start a scaping store this week, I would rather see at least one vendor online taking grower pre-orders, receiving plants directly from the grower, and then immediately dispatching plants every couple of weeks, than buying a bunch, sitting on them, and hoping they sell on Etsy or Ebay before they die.

I totally understand now how some aquascaping stores get started. Dave Pierce at Aquarium Gardens was interviewed several years ago, and admitted he started his store out of frustation at not being able to have the access to plants and hardscape he wanted. I feel you Dave. He now has one of the most successful operations in the UK. Maybe I need to fully retire from my day job?

 

[JayP]

As I read each sentence of this , I was saying "Yes!". Every single point agreed with.

 

[BenB]

I think we can all sympathize with much of this if not all of it. I too am sick of the

The first is someone please start a scaping store with me, a la Horizon or

I almost went to Horizon last year, but I was dead tired. It was a good thing because they were in Japan anyway.

Not that well-packed plants can’t get jostled in shipping, but the number of what had been healthy plants I received tossed loose in a box with upside down cultures in gel (really appreciating the trend toward liquid media for just that reason), or pots literally thrown in bags and smashed together arriving with their leaves torn off, is BS. (I am looking at you specifically, west coast).

I'm with you. The last shipment I received from a certain vendor had the end torn off the box and taped back badly with gaps. It wasn't like shipping damage either because usually part of the box is crushed in those cases. It's hard to describe, but it looked like someone forgot an item in the box, purposefully ripped the end off around the edges, threw it in, and taped it back half ass. There was also no packing. So everything was banging around. A cup was open. Plants were damaged. I was frustrated.

I do now have vendors on my ‘no buy’ list based on plant condition on arrival this past week.

Yeah, but I like tissue culture and there are only so many people that sell a decent variety of that.

Aqua Forest Aquarium

They are awesome, but I do get frustrated with the online store. The items are listed with prefexes like "AFA tissue culture" or "IC0008 ADA tissue cuture" and you can't search or order their inventory in a helpful manner. You have to go through every item individually. It's annoying.

My BurrAqua

Most of the best plants I have in my tank right now came from Joe. I only order tc online. Otherwise it comes from Joe.

My LFS does try. They aren't amazing, but I appreciate that they try, and I attempt to support them. They have Tropica tc, some wood, and rocks. Its a haul for me to get over there, but I make the effort.

I know it's not that close to you, but have you tried Capital Exotic Fish in DC? I know one of the owners. He's a scaper and a good guy. I have no idea what they have to offer though. Are you in GWAPA?

 

[BenB]

As I read each sentence of this , I was saying "Yes!". Every single point agreed with.

Same

 

[Art]

I could not agree more. The reason I started the "how to ship plants" thread was to try and get people to see best practices. Hoping this improves the receipt of healthy plants.

I've been saying for years and years - the lack of available quality and variety of plants in the USA (North America) is one of the main limiting factors with our hobby.

If I could retire and focus on building a plant nursery that focused on plant quality, professional shipping and direct to consumer, I would. Alas, it's not my reality. I do hope someone takes up the challenge and is properly rewarded for risks.

 

[Naturescapes_Rocco]

As I read each sentence of this , I was saying "Yes!". Every single point agreed with.

I did the same.

Great post, venting many of the frustrations we feel in here in US!

 

[Capraquaria]

I know it's not that close to you, but have you tried Capital Exotic Fish in DC? I know one of the owners. He's a scaper and a good guy. I have no idea what they have to offer though. Are you in GWAPA?

I haven't been to Capital Exotic Fish. I thought I had at first, but was confusing it with Capital Aquarium in Manassas (not worth another visit there), I see the DC store is different entirely. I think I found their website before, but couldn't tell if they were walk-in retail, or just custom and maintenance, as I didn't see any hours listed. I will have to check them out next time I venture into DC, especially as they do tank sales, too.

As for GWAPA, I had no idea they existed, so thank you for that! I did become an AGA member this year, but I will be sure to check out this group. At least they seem to be active, which is more than I can say for most other groups I have found out here.

 

[gnatster]

I can't imagine trying to obtain all the plants for a tank that large after what I experienced filling a smaller tank. You spend the time to create a nice plant list, only to find that you hit multiple vendors to fill the list.

If I could retire and focus on building a plant nursery that focused on plant quality, professional shipping and direct to consumer, I would. Alas, it's not my reality. I do hope someone takes up the challenge and is properly rewarded for risks.

I'm semi-retired, have a great location in mind for the Aquatic Plant Gallery / Record Store / Listening Gallery combo. Built as an automobile showroom in 1924. Rehabbed to fit in the Short North Arts District, the area has morphed into. Only a block or so from home, too. Turn the ground floor into the Gallery. The loft the record shop / listening gallery area.

Anyone got a spare few 100 grand to burn on this?

 

[BenB]

As for GWAPA, I had no idea they existed, so thank you for that! I did become an AGA member this year, but I will be sure to check out this group. At least they seem to be active, which is more than I can say for most other groups I have found out here.

All groups like this go through high and low phases depending on leadership and interest. A GWAPA friend told me they were currently on the upswing after a slower period. They have hosted the AGA convention twice. So that tells you how active they can be.

I don't know much of anything about Capital Exotic Fish except I know an owner and he sold me Controlsoil at the Raleigh AGA. He's also done paludarium talks at the last 2-3 AGA conventions.

 

[Koan]

tossed loose in a box with upside down cultures in gel (really appreciating the trend toward liquid media for just that reason), or pots literally thrown in bags and smashed together arriving with their leaves torn off.. Others arrived entombed in algae

That blows I'm so sorry

Without necessarily going into specifics, could you please call out the fail vendors that you bought from?

Alternatively if you want to post a full on purchase review with negative reviews of your experience, please feel free to do that

FWIW I have had solid experiences from APF, Aquatic Arts, Cuboid, Daku, The Wet Spot, several Etsy and Ebay vendors and half a dozen others for livestock. I've had bad customer service from AZ Aquatic Gardens, but their plants were OK

technically not ‘dead’ so not eligible for a refund.

Sometimes an Etsy or Ebay plant will get mashed or melt in transit, but so far these providers have been good about refunds right away. I have had to push back sometimes on plants that were trashed and about to die but so far they have all responded appropriately with refunds.

I haven't been to Capital Exotic Fish, was confusing it with Capital Aquarium in Manassas (not worth another visit there),

Haha agreed I confused them with Congressional Aquarium in Rockville too haven't been to Capital Exotic yet but I know @Dennis Wong has spoken there!

Locally I have not at all been impressed with the plant selections at Splashy Fish

Potomac Aquarium Club had their biannual big auction last month but I missed it don't know how much plants are there but might be worth checking out the fall auction.

As for GWAPA

Looks like there's an auction at the June picnic!

 

[fishyjeff]

I have a 120p and it is basically impossible to find any hardscape locally for a tank of that size. When my the local shops do have driftwood in stock it's usually for smaller tanks. The plant selection is meager and usually not in very good shape. Of course I realize it's a pretty niche hobby so you can't really expect a local shop to be well stocked with hardscape, etc. I order most of my items online and have had pretty good luck with a couple of vendors so I stick with them.

I would be ecstatic to have one shop within three hours that specialized in planted tanks. I can see myself going for a visit every so often.

 

[Art]

I know you've considered this but it is common to build the hardscape from smaller pieces because of the difficulty finding larger pieces of driftwood. Not everyone will live near @plantbrain or businesses that stock the large pieces. Tissue paper and superglue works well.

Of course, large stones will be difficult if that's what you're going for but I've seen people gluing stones together to give them more mass.

Just a thought.

 

[fishyjeff]

All of my hardscapes have been smaller pieces glued together. My current hardscape consists of eight pieces glued. I actually enjoy the process. I just have dreams of stumbling upon that "perfect" piece, whatever that might be, someday.

 

[Capraquaria]

Potomac Aquarium Club had their biannual big auction last month but I missed it don't know how much plants are there but might be worth checking out the fall auction.

Looks like there's an auction at the June picnic!

See, this is why I love being here at Scapecrunch. The collective knowledge here is awesome. I had tried to find an active local club like this when I first moved out, but missed this one. "Our focus is more on freshwater than saltwater, but our interests are diverse". Part of how I ended up here is because there seems to be plenty of reef/marine in this area, but active clubs with a focus on freshwater fish/plants was difficult to find. I love that their meeting schedule doesn't start until noonish on Saturdays, too. We have no employees here on weekends, so my on-farm committments weekend mornings make it difficult for me to get to anything with an early start. I will definitely keep an eye on their meeting schedule, thank you!

 

[Capraquaria]

I have a 120p and it is basically impossible to find any hardscape locally for a tank of that size. When my the local shops do have driftwood in stock it's usually for smaller tanks. The plant selection is meager and usually not in very good shape. Of course I realize it's a pretty niche hobby so you can't really expect a local shop to be well stocked with hardscape, etc. I order most of my items online and have had pretty good luck with a couple of vendors so I stick with them.

I would be ecstatic to have one shop within three hours that specialized in planted tanks. I can see myself going for a visit every so often.

I had the same issue with this tank, nothing local, and didn't want to be at the mercy of someone else choosing hardscape for me. You may already use some of these vendors, but for rocks, I love Aqua Rocks Colorado because I can specify which type of rock, and how much, and they will always text me a photo of the specific rocks they have selected before shipping. If you are looking for something specific 'I need a tall piece of hakkai of x height and y width" or a more flat versus round rock, they will do their best to find what you are looking for. Not quite the same as shopping in person, but the next best thing. It's like having a hardscape personal shopper! For example, this is one of the pics Damion texted me for approval before shipping.



For driftwood, it is how I ended up blowing the budget on Manzanita. There are some questionable vendors out there, but I have two on Etsy that I love, but they are not cheap. However, the wood is prepared well, with no bark to rot in your tank (all lightly sand blasted), and the pieces are WYSIWYG. For my 150, all of the pieces came from Bowles Manzanita Ranch out of California, or The Ideal Conditions from Arizona. Both are great to work with, and package the driftwood exceptionally well. However, you will blow half the budget of a good tank for pieces like that. It took four pieces to build the 'structure' for my 150.

Another WYSIWYG option I have used, that is a bit cheaper, is Pet World Lawrence (KS). The selection isn't huge, but they do list a variety of woods (dragon wood, malaysian etc). If you are looking for something specific it is worth keeping an eye on. They probably have more WYSIWYG Ghostwood (manzanita) pieces, than other wood, but they were prompt in shipping, well packed, and the two pieces I purchased for another tank were exactly what I expected from the photos they had posted online. They have some larger 48 inch pieces, but their ghostwood is not as hefty as the two Etsy Manzanita vendors I listed above. If you want pieces that are more branchy, though, I think they are a solid choice.

As for plant choices, my next tank will be a farm tank so I can grab plants from BurrAqua as they come in stock, and maybe more folks here with all these gorgeous planted tanks can start vending extras on ScapeBid? Even the common stuff. I would have given my right arm to anyone with extra narrow leaf trident fern, and CO2 adapted already would be huge. I would much rather buy here than some of where I tried to source plants from for this build. For TC, I will stick with AFA for ADA tissue culture out of San Francisco, and ARC for Tropica for now.

 

[ample]

I took a very long hiatus from the hobby after college and was really saddened to see a lot of smaller online hobbyist plant shops no longer in business. I remember being able to pick and choose a huge variety of plants by the stem that were all submerged grown, like how Burr does it currently. Back then everyone would just ship USPS priority or flat rate, which would only add a few bucks to the cost. Does anyone remember Han Aquatics? Or Liquid Creations? Had to dig deep into my PayPal archives to find the names again.

 

[JayP]

Another WYSIWYG option I have used, that is a bit cheaper, is Pet World Lawrence (KS).

Pet World is widely considered to have the best freshwater fish selection of any LFS around Kansas City. It's a 45 minute to hour drive for me , but it's where I've purchased most of my fish.. In the store, you wouldn't think they have a lot of hardscape, but they have a large warehouse nearby where they keep most of it and they also have many more tanks for fish.

 

[Capraquaria]

Pet World is widely considered to have the best freshwater fish selection of any LFS around Kansas City. It's a 45 minute to hour drive for me , but it's where I've purchased most of my fish.. In the store, you wouldn't think they have a lot of hardscape, but they have a large warehouse nearby where they keep most of it and they also have many more tanks for fish.

It's cool they aren't far from you! I think I first heard about them via a thread on Reddit last year. My husband has family near Lawrence, and Jetmore. Next time I am out that direction I should check them out!

 

[fishyjeff]

I had the same issue with this tank, nothing local, and didn't want to be at the mercy of someone else choosing hardscape for me. You may already use some of these vendors, but for rocks, I love Aqua Rocks Colorado because I can specify which type of rock, and how much, and they will always text me a photo of the specific rocks they have selected before shipping. If you are looking for something specific 'I need a tall piece of hakkai of x height and y width" or a more flat versus round rock, they will do their best to find what you are looking for. Not quite the same as shopping in person, but the next best thing. It's like having a hardscape personal shopper! For example, this is one of the pics Damion texted me for approval before shipping.

View attachment 17134

For driftwood, it is how I ended up blowing the budget on Manzanita. There are some questionable vendors out there, but I have two on Etsy that I love, but they are not cheap. However, the wood is prepared well, with no bark to rot in your tank (all lightly sand blasted), and the pieces are WYSIWYG. For my 150, all of the pieces came from Bowles Manzanita Ranch out of California, or The Ideal Conditions from Arizona. Both are great to work with, and package the driftwood exceptionally well. However, you will blow half the budget of a good tank for pieces like that. It took four pieces to build the 'structure' for my 150.

Another WYSIWYG option I have used, that is a bit cheaper, is Pet World Lawrence (KS). The selection isn't huge, but they do list a variety of woods (dragon wood, malaysian etc). If you are looking for something specific it is worth keeping an eye on. They probably have more WYSIWYG Ghostwood (manzanita) pieces, than other wood, but they were prompt in shipping, well packed, and the two pieces I purchased for another tank were exactly what I expected from the photos they had posted online. They have some larger 48 inch pieces, but their ghostwood is not as hefty as the two Etsy Manzanita vendors I listed above. If you want pieces that are more branchy, though, I think they are a solid choice.

As for plant choices, my next tank will be a farm tank so I can grab plants from BurrAqua as they come in stock, and maybe more folks here with all these gorgeous planted tanks can start vending extras on ScapeBid? Even the common stuff. I would have given my right arm to anyone with extra narrow leaf trident fern, and CO2 adapted already would be huge. I would much rather buy here than some of where I tried to source plants from for this build. For TC, I will stick with AFA for ADA tissue culture out of San Francisco, and ARC for Tropica for now.

All of the manzanita that I have came from Tom Barr a few years ago when he was still selling amounts smaller than a pallet. I've considered buying a pallet from him, but that would require buying more aquariums to be able to use it which at some point might require a larger home for the aquariums the wood would require. The new home might end up being a bit too aquariumcentric for my wife's taste. Although, she has approved another tank which I've been giving some thought to lately.

That being said, one could do a group buy on a pallet and let the wood inspire a scape instead of going in with a layout already in mind.

I also ordered quite a bit of hornwood from AFA which I was really happy with. It was kind of pricey but has a lot of character.

 

[JayP]

It's cool they aren't far from you! I think I first heard about them via a thread on Reddit last year. My husband has family near Lawrence, and Jetmore. Next time I am out that direction I should check them out!

Oh, I guess they were at Aquashella this weekend as well. They definitely don't display all of that in the store.

Pet World at Aquashella, Dallas