Journal Joel Armstrong - My journey

[Burr740]

Man these diatoms are perplexing!

On vacuuming I hit the surface regularly using a piece of 1/2" hose siphoning into a 5 gal bucket. Move the hose around the bottom with one hand, holding it so that a finger or two is past the opening. That way you can feel your way around the bottom and keep the hose at the right height so you dont suck up the substrate. Its a powerful suction, dont get close to a fish with it! This is 10x better than a turkey baster or whatever

Deep vac I maybe do that once a year, usually do about 1/3 at a time if the whole tank is getting it. All at once can cause too much disruption, weird algae blooms and a few plants wont like it for some reason. Sometimes I'll just do certain areas. I think its really important and if its overdue for a cleaning it can certainly cause plant issues

In your case Joel Id probably do a deep vac, its not gonna hurt anything

As for waiting on the sub to 'mature' or whatever. Thats a thing for sure, theres a sweet spot that comes after 2-3 months. But even from day one there shouldnt be any major issues, not like this for sure

Wish I could think of how you might fix this ongoing plague but youve already done about everything I can think of

 

[Joel Armstrong]

I’ll be honest, I rarely vacuum. Unless I see a need to and that’s only when I see debris on the substrate. Last week, I decided to do a semi deep vacuum on the 120 and it was pointless. Almost no gunk was present.

The photos above. How deep is the substrate I’m seeing?

About 3 inches deep

 

[Joel Armstrong]

Man these diatoms are perplexing!

On vacuuming I hit the surface regularly using a piece of 1/2" hose siphoning into a 5 gal bucket. Move the hose around the bottom with one hand, holding it so that a finger or two is past the opening. That way you can feel your way around the bottom and keep the hose at the right height so you dont suck up the substrate. Its a powerful suction, dont get close to a fish with it! This is 10x better than a turkey baster or whatever

Deep vac I maybe do that once a year, usually do about 1/3 at a time if the whole tank is getting it. All at once can cause too much disruption, weird algae blooms and a few plants wont like it for some reason. Sometimes I'll just do certain areas. I think its really important and if its overdue for a cleaning it can certainly cause plant issues

In your case Joel Id probably do a deep vac, its not gonna hurt anything

As for waiting on the sub to 'mature' or whatever. Thats a thing for sure, theres a sweet spot that comes after 2-3 months. But even from day one there shouldnt be any major issues, not like this for sure

Wish I could think of how you might fix this ongoing plague but youve already done about everything I can think of

2 years ago, when I first started the tank, I dark cycled with soil for 8 weeks. I never saw any type of diatoms at all, nothing, not filamentous type or even dust type diatoms.

Ever since I deep vacuumed and started using that clay breaker rubbish, I can't get rid of it

 

[Yugang]

I do use a Turkey baster and syphon off debris also..
And I have been trimming and replanting healthy tops, I think I just did too much in one session

I've reread most of your thread @Joel Armstrong , and refreshed my memory regarding the diatoms issues. Obviously my suggestion above was not really helpful, sorry for that. Also see that you already got much support from friends with lots of experience. I read some threads on other fora as well, but other than 'wait until the tank matures and regular algae win the competition', and 'silicates', the advice is not very consistent.

You're obviously dealing with a mystery, and had hoped that the clay breaker was the issue. You seem to have tried nearly everything that makes sense, but I wonder if you've considered to hire some critters (Ramshorn snail, shrimp) or Ottos to help?

One thing that I would try is to syphon (so that the dirt will not spread into the tank) one segment of soil from the tank (say 20%), and give this a couple of really deep rinses in a bucket. I am thinking here about any residues left behind from some past problem, perhaps unlikely, and be sure that this small patch of inert sand is absolutely unproblematic. As it is a small patch, it will not affect your whole tank too much, but I'd like to see how this thoroughly cleaned patch compares the the untreated soil in the rest of the tank. I am not saying it is a high probability for success, but by now you've tried all the more obvious remedies already.

 

[Joel Armstrong]

I've reread most of your thread @Joel Armstrong , and refreshed my memory regarding the diatoms issues. Obviously my suggestion above was not really helpful, sorry for that. Also see that you already got much support from friends with lots of experience. I read some threads on other fora as well, but other than 'wait until the tank matures and regular algae win the competition', and 'silicates', the advice is not very consistent.

You're obviously dealing with a mystery, and had hoped that the clay breaker was the issue. You seem to have tried nearly everything that makes sense, but I wonder if you've considered to hire some critters (Ramshorn snail, shrimp) or Ottos to help?

One thing that I would try is to syphon (so that the dirt will not spread into the tank) one segment of soil from the tank (say 20%), and give this a couple of really deep rinses in a bucket. I am thinking here about any residues left behind from some past problem, perhaps unlikely, and be sure that this small patch of inert sand is absolutely unproblematic. As it is a small patch, it will not affect your whole tank too much, but I'd like to see how this thoroughly cleaned patch compares the the untreated soil in the rest of the tank. I am not saying it is a high probability for success, but by now you've tried all the more obvious remedies already.

Thank you for taking the time to read through and for your advice.

The diatoms is not as bad as it once was, but still persistent. I can seem to get rid of it after a while, but when I do any uprooting a mild case returns again.

There is still some clay breaker in the substrate currently, particularly at the rear corners where I was adding it to the tank, strangely enough though, those areas don't seem to be affected by diatoms, it's more so in the middle of the tank and at the front of the tank near the glass. As I said, I can syphon it away, and be seemingly clear of filamentous diatoms, but when I uprooted anything, it returns... maybe not quite as bad though.

I have thought to do something similar to what you said actually, I thought to gravel vac small sections at a time, but just in tank.

I have not been a fan of introducing fish or critters to solve tank issues, but I have thought about it recently. I have two Otto's on the tank, they appear to do very little in the way of diatoms though.. I do like snails though, wondered about getting a few.

 

[Burr740]

Ottos normally feast on it. Are the two you have now fat in the belly or skinny? If theyre fat I bet a dozen would knock a major dent and help keep it at bay. But if theyre skinny it means theyre not eating it so no point adding more. Good suggestion I think to find something that will eat it

 

[Joel Armstrong]

Ottos normally feast on it. Are the two you have now fat in the belly or skinny? If theyre fat I bet a dozen would knock a major dent and help keep it at bay. But if theyre skinny it means theyre not eating it so no point adding more. Good suggestion I think to find something that will eat it

I'd say they're a little plump

 

[Joel Armstrong]

Man these diatoms are perplexing!

On vacuuming I hit the surface regularly using a piece of 1/2" hose siphoning into a 5 gal bucket. Move the hose around the bottom with one hand, holding it so that a finger or two is past the opening. That way you can feel your way around the bottom and keep the hose at the right height so you dont suck up the substrate. Its a powerful suction, dont get close to a fish with it! This is 10x better than a turkey baster or whatever

Deep vac I maybe do that once a year, usually do about 1/3 at a time if the whole tank is getting it. All at once can cause too much disruption, weird algae blooms and a few plants wont like it for some reason. Sometimes I'll just do certain areas. I think its really important and if its overdue for a cleaning it can certainly cause plant issues

In your case Joel Id probably do a deep vac, its not gonna hurt anything

As for waiting on the sub to 'mature' or whatever. Thats a thing for sure, theres a sweet spot that comes after 2-3 months. But even from day one there shouldnt be any major issues, not like this for sure

Wish I could think of how you might fix this ongoing plague but youve already done about everything I can think of

Thanks for commenting Joe.

There's cyanobacteria developing as well. From the poorly growing plants I guess The cyanobacteria is on the poorly growing plants and on the substrate surrounding them.

I'll take your advice, I'll remove the crappy growing plants and do a deep sub clean. About a 3rd of the tank you suggest?

Should I do more water changes during this process also?

After deep cleaning say a 3rd of the substrate, how long should I wait before I deep clean another 3rd?

Do you think I should lower the light intensity while I go through this process?

I have a few bags of new soil, it's master soil that a friend gave me. Would there be any benefit from adding some of this soil to the tank? Perhaps in small amounts, to each section that I deep clean? Or am I asking for more trouble doing this?

There's a lot of questions here

 

[Mr.Shenanagins]

I dealt with similar diatom issue a few scapes ago. I currently am dealing with a filamentous outbreak that occurred after I added some more sand to the tank and disturbed my Java fern bushes and chopped up my moss. The brown stuff I’m dealing with also has a pretty strong earthy smell to it. Prior to it spreading around, it mostly collected pretty heavily by the end of the week at the top of my driftwood where I have some emergent moss growing. I’ll post a picture of what I’m referring to today or tomorrow.

Yesterday I cleaned out my sump, pressed out the sponges and rinsed my biomedia and scrubbed all the pumps and glass. Tuesday night I’ll be pulling stems, cleaning them up and vacuuming any debris/detritus. I’ll let you know if I have improvement. I think for sure that issue is an imbalance and potentially the constant sifting around of the substrate. If and when I pull plants, I don’t vacuum other than a surface vacuum. Too much of a deep clean and too often will cause some issues at least from when I’ve done it in the past.

 

[Joel Armstrong]

I’ll let you know if I have improvement.

I'm interested to see how it goes, please keep updating

. I think for sure that issue is an imbalance and potentially the constant sifting around of the substrate. If and when I pull plants, I don’t vacuum other than a surface vacuum. Too much of a deep clean and too often will cause some issues at least from when I’ve done it in the past.

I am thinking you're right.. but I'm thinking I may need to do a deep clean.. at least in small patches at a time.. I've recently done a semi deep clean of just a small area of my tank, geez .. a lot of crap was syphoned out.. I understand too much substrate disturbance is not recommended, but I'm wondering there must come a point where it needs to be done also.. I'd like to learn how to manage this. Experimenting brings experience I guess

 

[Mr.Shenanagins]

So here’s what I’m dealing with at the moment, and from what I can gather, it mostly presents itself in excess when there is some sort of disturbance. My humble and not scientifically proven opinion in my case is potentially too much excess ammonia from either plant breakdown or fish death. I think a big issue with our tanks is not knowing necessarily if you have a loss, and if you do, where is it. I know it’s not super common to lose fish a lot, but I’m convinced it wreaks havoc. So much so that I’ve actually stopped stocking nerites in my tank. It’s almost impossible to keep them very long with CO2 injection rotting their shells and all too often I find them well after the fact and the damage to the tank is already done. The past several days my tank has been blacked out, not allowing this brown mass to continue, and it HAS helped. I’d assume with your plants growing decently well you’d be okay doing so too. Right now I pulled all my stems so I can clean the substrate, moss, hardscape and anubias/buce.

 

[FrankZ]

I have been vacuuming a lot because of the slime. Which I’m not sure if it’s helping or hurting the situation. It’s probably a fine line of just enough. I don’t like seeing anything in or on the substrate so I tend to vacuum as much of the substrate I can get to.

I read some where to target 1/3 of the substrate at every water change which seems like a reasonable target to maintain things assuming there are no problems to begin with.

 

[Mr.Shenanagins]

Whelp I think every situation is different, like for me I DEEP vacuum the area around the island each water change to freshen up the sand. It’s mixture of pulling up fine waste and basically overturning the sand. I don’t ever see negative effects here. It’s only when I’ve deep vacuumed where my bags of soil are laid that I tend to get a bout of algae after the fact, but that could be from not changing enough water after the fact. Perhaps a strong dose of Safe could counteract that, but then again if it’s not just ammonia causing the uproar then that’s only part of the solution. I think as we’ve discussed keeping up with preventive to help the long term is the key.

 

[Burr740]

Thanks for commenting Joe.

There's cyanobacteria developing as well. From the poorly growing plants I guess The cyanobacteria is on the poorly growing plants and on the substrate surrounding them.

I'll take your advice, I'll remove the crappy growing plants and do a deep sub clean. About a 3rd of the tank you suggest?

Should I do more water changes during this process also?

After deep cleaning say a 3rd of the substrate, how long should I wait before I deep clean another 3rd?

Do you think I should lower the light intensity while I go through this process?

I have a few bags of new soil, it's master soil that a friend gave me. Would there be any benefit from adding some of this soil to the tank? Perhaps in small amounts, to each section that I deep clean? Or am I asking for more trouble doing this?

There's a lot of questions here

I would not lower the light because you want the plants surging as much as possible right now. Any marginal difference it would make to the diatoms would, imo, be negated by also slowing down the plants

Like we said Id just do 1/4-1/3 of the tank at one time. Always right before the water change, and just wait til the next weeks water change to do another one. do a big water changes while your vacuuming, but no extra ones in between. It would knock too big a in nutrient levels you have in the water and youd need to adjust dosing. Thats an extra variable you dont need atm

As for adding a little soil to it. Dont think it would hurt anything. Might be good for some of the plants. Cant say one way or the other really

 

[Yugang]

I would not lower the light because you want the plants surging as much as possible right now. Any marginal difference it would make to the diatoms would, imo, be negated by also slowing down the plants

Like we said Id just do 1/4-1/3 of the tank at one time. Always right before the water change, and just wait til the next weeks water change to do another one. do a big water changes while your vacuuming, but no extra ones in between. It would knock too big a in nutrient levels you have in the water and youd need to adjust dosing. Thats an extra variable you dont need atm

As for adding a little soil to it. Dont think it would hurt anything. Might be good for some of the plants. Cant say one way or the other really

May be obvious, but just to be sure ... , make sure the gunk from soil cleaning does not contaminate your cannister. I am always very careful with soil, I even do two 80%-90% WC before I turn on filter again. Of course with two WC, you need to compensate your ferts and remineralisation for that as well.

 

[Joel Armstrong]

Well, during the past week, I've done two cleaning sessions. I've concentrated on about a 1/4 of the tank each time, not a DEEP clean, but hitting the surface of the substrate about an inch deep using a turkey baster syphoning the crap, removing deteriorating growth and replanting healthier tops. Doing 75% water changes each time. Both times, I've just dosed the entire tank to 30-10-40, and then a smaller dose again, two days later. Smaller dose being 5.625 - 1.875 - 7.5

Like we said Id just do 1/4-1/3 of the tank at one time. Always right before the water change, and just wait til the next weeks water change to do another one. do a big water changes while your vacuuming, but no extra ones in between. It would knock too big a in nutrient levels you have in the water and youd need to adjust dosing. Thats an extra variable you dont need atm

I'll follow your advice, perhaps what I've done is not so good.

 

[Joel Armstrong]

I've installed a larger reactor, 20 inch housing.

No gas pocket developing, and silent...

 

[Burr740]

May be obvious, but just to be sure ... , make sure the gunk from soil cleaning does not contaminate your cannister. I am always very careful with soil, I even do two 80%-90% WC before I turn on filter again. Of course with two WC, you need to compensate your ferts and remineralisation for that as well.

Agree. I didnt mention it but obviously need to turn the filters off before a deep vac. A double back to back wc is definitely the way to get it all out of the system. Just have to know the water column levels will be zero and dose accordingly. I dont usually do that personally but its also good advice

I'll follow your advice, perhaps what I've done is not so good.

Its a good start dont worry much about it. The new reactor might make a big difference too. The root of most issues is the plants being a little unhappy, even if its not totally obvious they are not

 

[Joel Armstrong]

I started last week, deep vacuuming a section of the tank at a time. There is so much dirt, detritus and of course the dreaded claybreaker in the substrate. Over the last week, diatom bloom again .
Today, I decided to just pull all the plants and just deep vacuum the whole tank. In doing so, I'm noticing the claybreaker is extremely difficult to get out of the tank, it continually mixes with substrate particles, a lot of it just stays in the tank.

I think I need to syphon/remove all of the substrate out of the tank, I don't see any other way to 100% remove the damned claybreaker once and for all.

Once the sub is out, I don't know if I should bother trying to sift through the sub to remove all the remaining claybreaker, or just go back to soil.

I haven't been enjoying the hobby for a while now, and won't give up, but I do want to start again fresh, but I'm not sure which route to take.

 

[Yugang]

I think I need to syphon/remove all of the substrate out of the tank, I don't see any other way to 100% remove the damned claybreaker once and for all.

This is what I do about once per year. Remove all the soil, I syphon it out, give it a really good rinse in dechlorinated water, and then back in and replant.

For the microorganisms I rely on my canister, which I keep shut down for a few hours, on the surface film on glass and tubing, on the plants and what's living on it, and on what remains in the substrate.

After replanting on the cleaned substrate a few big water changes while applying decholorinater, and only then restart the filter again.

During the process I just keep my fish in the tank, and I have hardly ever lost one. I also have not had algae outbreaks so far, but that may be pure luck, so knock on wood.