Is this Father Fish inspired aquarium doomed?

[Dennis Wong]

I'm really not a fan of Walstad, and my criticism of her approach can be summarized as

"a whole lot of scientific jargon to grow sword plants in mud ? ! ?"

In the time taken to digest that pretentious "scientific treatise", one could have taken a couple of extra shifts at work, buy a CO2 system and leapfrog her practical outcomes by a mile. Growing plants in soil in aquariums is treated as some novel idea, when practically all plants in the wild grow in soil??

A CO2 injected garden soil tank, with more time spent studying plant/hardscape arrangement rather than obscure microbiology. Regular, but simple fert dosing schedule:


Back when I read her book (more than 10 years back by now), I remembered that my main problem with her book was that while it centered around soil substrates, it gave very little precise guidance on how to actually choose/modify an effective soil substrate. Folks like Sean Murphy do a better job explaining stuff like the why and how of MTS. While long on scientific jargon, the book is sparse on specific impact points of what makes effective lighting, choosing soil, or managing carbon levels in a low tech tank.

Her approach can be summarized as use soil in the aquarium, then keep switching out plant species till you find something that survives. Then create a post on facebook titled "no chemicals, no water change, plants still grow, yay !!". Then let survivorship bias spread a generation of low success rate endeavors that think that growing vals and sword plants in mud somehow translates into a mastery of "natural methods".

Low tech tanks that work well, work well because they generate adequate carbon naturally. There are no plants that "don't require CO2", though there are plant species that scavenge low CO2 levels more efficiently. In examples where setups can generate substantial amount of CO2 (such as Sudipta shaw's experiments), pickier species can grow well. One way to generate CO2 is through soil microbial action. Her book mentions this but with no concrete data, and doesn't describe principles to get a soil to generate CO2 - and this single action of soil is what makes low soil tanks successful. Multilayering? grain size? organic content? flow control? off gassing yes or no? how to practically replant stuff in soil substrates?

We need a better flag bearer for low tech tanks in general.

On the soil CO2 generation side, from my own experiments, certain soil mixes definitely work better than others. I had a soil mix (3 inch soil to 8 inch water ratio) that generated 18ppm of CO2 when left standing overnight. And I think that the future of low tech tank refinement lies in maximizing carbon generation through manipulating soil mixes. Unfortunately I have little commercial interest in refining this approach, as our (2hr Aquarist) customer base are mostly at the opposite end of the spectrum (high tech users, difficult plant selection).

 

[Kwyet]

I understand the points, and agree that improvements could have been made. The book was rather dry, and some of it is outdated now. I still think it was a valuable contribution, and as an extreme newb, I found it informative. I never used actual dirt though, having read about aquasoil (completely new to me at the time). I think it should be kept in mind that not everyone can just work extra shifts and save more money. When you’re already working a couple of jobs, or around 60 hours a week and raising kids, you can’t necessarily do that. Why shouldn’t you be able to enjoy a low-tech, low-maintenance tank? Why look down on that? You can say it’s not for you, but I don’t understand the judginess here.

Here is my little bowl from before we moved, filterless, no supplemental CO2, but with small water changes every couple of weeks, and a little bit of aquasoil and sand, and it didn’t break the bank!

 

[Koan]

Her book mentions this but with no concrete data, and doesn't describe principles to get a soil to generate CO2

We need a better flag bearer for low tech tanks in general.

Okay no argument there.. but you know that was originally published in 1999, right

Ms Walstad is a retired professor at NC State, currently breeding Guppies peacefully at home.. Professors literally make their career by putting a stake in the ground at some point, making some claim and then defending that viewpoint against all comers for the rest of their career. It's the universal academic mindset. So it doesn't surprise me at all that her 2023 update really doesn't do anything to embrace the improvements that have become available.

I think it's fair to say she's become out of step with what can actually be accomplished in high end horticulture and aquascaping using non CO2 supplemented methods..
But I think people hold on to her name because they're defensive about being frightened by CO2.

In their defense lol, 2Hr aquarist has only been out there for what, 4 years? Before and up until then, there was literally nowhere a newbie could go to easily untangle how to understand and implement CO2.

This was the first time CO2 had ever been spelled out in an approachable, beautifully Illustrated, understandable and non-threatening way.

And CO2 is still to this day not readily available at big box stores in the US. PetSmart and Petco don't (yet) have anything to offer. So that leaves us still having to push back against 25 years of confusion and frustration in this market, repeated endlessly and perpetuated on YouTube..

but I don’t understand the judginess here.

I do Sea changes come so very, very slowly in any practice. Solving the problem, doesn't actually solve that problem.. It's is completely exasperating to see people drowning out there, with algae filled tanks that crash and frustration that makes them give up and leave, when they could so easily just stand up and walk ashore!

If the fans of Walstad and Dr fish would just stop dragging them back out to sea again..

 

[Koan]

Here is my little bowl

Gorgeous I'm trying to grow one of those.. may reach out to you for pointers!

 

[Kwyet]

Okay no argument there.. but you know that was originally published in 1999, right

Ms Walstad is a retired professor at NC State, currently breeding Guppies peacefully at home.. Professors literally make their career by putting a stake in the ground at some point, making some claim and then defending that viewpoint against all comers for the rest of their career. It's the universal academic mindset. So it doesn't surprise me at all that her 2023 update really doesn't do anything to embrace the improvements that have become available.

I think it's fair to say she's become out of step with what can actually be accomplished in high end horticulture and aquascaping using non CO2 supplemented methods..
But I think people hold on to her name because they're defensive about being frightened by CO2.

In their defense lol, 2Hr aquarist has only been out there for what, 4 years? Before and up until then, there was literally nowhere a newbie could go to easily untangle how to understand and implement CO2.

This was the first time CO2 had ever been spelled out in an approachable, beautifully Illustrated, understandable and non-threatening way.

CO2 is still to this day not readily available at big box stores in the US. PetSmart and Petco don't have anything to offer. So that leaves us still having to push back against 25 years of confusion and frustration in this market, repeated endlessly and perpetuated on YouTube..



I do Sea changes come so very, very slowly in any practice. Solving the problem, doesn't actually solve that problem.. It's is completely exasperating to see people drowning out there, with algae filled tanks that crash and frustration that makes them give up and leave, when they could so easily just stand up and walk ashore!

If the fans of Walstad and Dr fish would just stop dragging them back out to sea again..

There’s some truth to that, but again, there’s a big difference between those two. For one thing, Dr. Fish says to NEVER do water changes, while Walstad says to do frequent water changes in the beginning and then gradually taper off. It may not be in her updated book, but she also started recommending more frequent water changes than previously after learning firsthand about fish TB, whereas I don’t think FF has changed his recommendations at all (I only watched a few of his videos for entertainment).
When speaking about judginess, I was talking about judging people that can’t afford these high end setups and begin with lower cost options. By the time I set up my little bowl, I could afford better things, so it’s more of a Walstad/MD blend. It’s one of my favorites though. When Walstad put out her book, I was on WIC, raising a young child, working, and taking classes. I could NEVER have afforded the kind of setups discussed above, but maybe if I had known about Walstad at the time we could have enjoyed a modest aquarium. That’s what I’m getting at.

Edit: Well, I guess I was also talking about judginess toward Walstad, but I think a lot of the problems that are seen in “Walstad” tanks are due to people incorrectly applying the information and not doing further research to find out how that information has changed over time. No one should rely only on one source from 25 years ago.

 

[Kwyet]

Gorgeous I'm trying to grow one of those.. may reach out to you for pointers!

Thank you very much!

 

[Art]

Great discussion and points here!

I think the issues come when there is a mismatch of advice and expectations. If you’re going to setup a non-CO2 supplemented tank, you should expect it to look like CO2 supplemented tanks. I want a Ferrari but can only afford a Honda. I should not expect to perform like a Ferrari in my Honda.

If expectations are managed, then finding the latest info on how to best grow in a non-supplemented tank is what should be shared.

 

[Wet Elbows]

I got lost in this thread after going back and reading it several times.
So I didn't quote, but someone posted about Cory having a planted display tank and how small the market is and how intimidating a planted set up like that is. I 1000% agree with Cory on this point. The number of people keeping planted aquariums vs the number of people keeping simple fish and plastic plants is astounding. Heavily planted aquariums, dutch, Walsted, Amano, whatever style your prefer, will always be a small niche in the aquarium hobby.
It is super intimidating to the average new hobbyist. Yes, they admire it and think it's beautiful, but in no way do they think they could accomplish it.
I know you guys know your stuff, and you're friendly, and willing to give good advice. But even for the small, small percentage of aquarium keepers that make it to this forum, even pictures of your tanks are intimidating. Take a step back and think about it for a moment. Perhaps because you're used to it, you've been here so long you're insulted from it. You can digest the nuances of off gassing and diy dry salts.

The average person sees your tank or any beautiful planted tank and says, I want that. Can I do that? The simple answer is no. Most people cannot do that. Why?

There are a myriad of reasons. Too lazy to do the work is probably the most prevalent. "I wanted a planted tank so I don't have to do water changes" If you're too lazy to do regular water changes, you're too lazy for the effort required to have that centerfold aquarium.
Cost is another prohibiting factor.
I'm poor. I can't afford aqua soil. I can't afford $500 Chiros lights. I'm trying to pull it off with simple inert gravel and cheap Finnex lights.

Someone previously mentioned the poor selection of plants at local fish stores. Truth. You have some swords, some Anubias, maybe some Eloda, that's about it, pretty basic. Now pick the best out of the ones turning brown and good luck to ya. Put yourself in the shoes of the owner of that LFS, why would you carry a vast selection of plants that won't get bought, will die, needs more equipment (CO2) that you don't stock. So yeah customer, go find a CO2 regulator on line for $300 or forget about those plants that will just die anyway and spend that $300 with me.

There need to be steps. Remember when you were a kid and you got some zebra danios, or you won that lucky gold fish at the fair. You took good care of it and you graduated to a community tank. Then live-bearers, then tetras, then Cichlids, then plants. Then after the cichlids tore up your plants you were done with them. Oh ok just me then? Lol. Just kidding, I still love Cichlids.
Unfortunately it doesn't work that way. There is no go to step one, have success, move to step two.
Even with all the great advice here there are still clowns on the Internet and YouTube that reach more people in a day with bad information than there are total members here. That's sad in my opinion. It's easy to see how someone new would get 29 differing opinions on how to proceed and every one of the 29 could be wrong. But noobs don't know the difference. So I thank you all for just trying to present the best information out there and what has worked and hasn't worked for you. Funny how you never see failure on YouTube, but we've all been there, we know it exists.

 

[Koan]

There need to be steps.

this.

Until Plug and Play steps are available at PetSmart and Petco, everyone's going to assume it's just another form of reefing, I.E too hard.

I was thinking about why CO2 hasn't broken through to big box stores, and I wonder if it doesn't come down to the fact that an adjustable regulator is too easy to kill fish with, or even just too intimidating.. It's not the gas itself, Sodastream is an unbelievably popular countertop appliance and it sells in every Target.

So what if somebody like BRS fresh, put together an offering with SodaStream for a tiny $45 "regulator" for the Sodastream cans with a fixed very low output diffuser. Something they couldn't turn up there's no way to gas the fish off, and it's enough carbon to raise it to maybe 10 or 15 PPM in your average 20 gallon bookshelf tank. Maybe with a built-in 6-hour timer..

There's your Plug and Play, hook it on the side of your tank and get a new SodaStream canister when it's time. Look how well your plants grow!

If plants are easy to keep alive, the big box stores will sell them. PetSmart has already been experimenting with tissue culture plants in baggies, they just haven't taken off because people can't get them growing. A light and a bottle of fertilizer is not getting them there.

Then after the cichlids tore up your plants you were done with them. Oh ok just me then?

 

[Kwyet]

It would be nice if budget versions of @Yugang ’s reactors could be offered in stores. They solve a ton of beginner concerns and don’t need high-end regulators. Even DIY CO2 works well with them.
I know they’re easy to make, but a ready-made version appeals more to beginners.

 

[Pepere]

It is super intimidating to the average new hobbyist. Yes, they admire it and think it's beautiful, but in no way do they think they could accomplish it.

Good video on “Learned helplessness.”

It takes time to progress without doubt…

You have to want to, and adopt Thomas Edisons philosophy that he learned about a lot of ways to not make a lightbulb before he discovered a way to make one…

And it is awfully hard to learn who is giving good information and who is giving less than great information..,

I like the advice I was given to find someone with tanks that look like what you want your to look like and then ask them for advice…


You dont need a Dutch Scape or a nature style akin to Amano or top aquascapers to still want good growth and fairly algae free tank…

There is so much questionable advice given on youtube that is redistributed as gospel truth on how to accomplish that…

 

[Art]

Fluval Pressurized CO2 Kit, 45 grams | Petco

With the Fluval Pressurized CO2 Kit by your side, you'll have everything you need to keep your underwater garden thriving! This little powerhouse is perfect for small planted aquariums up to 30 US gallons, and it's packed with features that make it a breeze to use. Overall, the Fluval...

www.petco.com

Inexpensive disposable CO2 kits are available.

 

[Pneumonicsonic]

Reading through most of this thread is fascinating. My journey with this hobby started with a free goldfish at a wedding, a green thumb that I wanted to try my hand at plants in tanks, finding substrate options expensive as a poor married college student with a kid, then later a poor medical student with two kids and I learned about Dr. Walstad’s book about 10 years ago, and as a scientist I loved it and embraced it. I recognized the shortcomings, but honestly it was a stable option for what I wanted for many years, even as the online side of the hobby was something I didn’t participate in from Covid til now nearly. I COMPLETELY missed the father fish thing being a weird pseudo science knock off of walstad method and bought plants from him thinking oh they’re submerged and grown in dirt (they’ve done okay) but the more I read the less I liked his approach.


I think as has been said there are many different ways to do this hobby, and serious planted tanks are a small niche within the overall aquarium hobby, whether they’re Dirted or not.

I’m interested in trying to bridge the gap between the soil substrate of my walstad tank and high tech and actually learn how to do cO2. It’s not for everyone but I hope to find the balance of beauty with the right level of maintenance.

 

[Pepere]

Inexpensive disposable CO2 kits are available.

And these have pretty awful reviews…

“

Customers say​

Customers report significant issues with the CO2 kit's functionality, with multiple customers noting that the bubble counter doesn't work properly. Moreover, the product shows poor durability, breaking within a week and lasting less than two days. Additionally, customers find it difficult to adjust and consider it not worth the money, with one customer describing it as a waste of time and money. The bubble quality receives mixed feedback, with some customers appreciating the large bubbles while others find them excessive.

Generated from the text of customer reviews”


Amazon AI overview of customer reviews…

30% 1 star reviews…

 

[Kwyet]

Fluval Pressurized CO2 Kit, 45 grams | Petco

With the Fluval Pressurized CO2 Kit by your side, you'll have everything you need to keep your underwater garden thriving! This little powerhouse is perfect for small planted aquariums up to 30 US gallons, and it's packed with features that make it a breeze to use. Overall, the Fluval...

www.petco.com

Inexpensive disposable CO2 kits are available.

I forgot about those, but the smaller version of that was one of my first forays into supplemental CO2. I didn’t care for it very much. I think Yugang’s designs are far superior. I suppose you could use this with Yugang’s reactors, on small tanks, but even then I don’t think I would have liked it.

 

[Koan]

Inexpensive disposable CO2 kits are available

Well sure, they sell Easy Carbo too. It doesn't work either.

The 45 grams of CO2 that comes in a tiny bicycle tire canister is not going to be adequate, and so it doesn't take off because it doesn't work. It looks like a gimmick, and essentially it is. Bad job, Hagen Fluval

And it's not plug and play, they put too much design into making it look like a real regulator, which is fiddly and frightens people / pisses them off when they break it.

A legitimate quantity of CO2 like in a single or paired SodaStream size canister(s) has the potential to actually grow plants for people. Pair it with a plug and play diffuser or dispenser that has nothing to adjust, just set the timer for daytime.

Hell you can paint the tanks yellow like scuba tanks and make the diffuser look like a mask and snorkel

The point that was raised was about entry steps, accessible to everyone who walks in to look at the betta rack at Petsmart. An entry step needs to be an appliance, a doohickey that is self-contained, takes no thought, and really works. Hang it, forget it, replace the bottle when the timer says to.

 

[Kwyet]

My progression went from the smaller Fluval kit, to an Fzone DIY kit with a CO2 Art regulator (which I’m still using on a small aquarium) with an in-tank diffuser, then an inline diffuser, then a Cerges reactor, followed by pairing with a paintball canister, and finally to 5 lb CO2 tank and eventually paired with a Yugang horizontal reactor. Out of all that, the last combo is best, but the Fzone is fairly affordable and easy and less intimidating at first.

I think it would be great if that was offered in those big box stores along with a budget horizontal reactor and/or open flow reactor. It would have still been out of my price range way back when, but if you’ve gotten serious enough to buy a canister filter and Fluval lights (only mentioned because they’re more commonly offered), then this combo wouldn’t be cost prohibitive.

 

[Art]

Great comments, everyone. Appreciate the thoughtful discussion. Any chance a US retailer may be reading along and thinking???

My point is that there needs to be an easy to find way to take a newbie from inexpensive, simple first step and then support along the journey if they want to upgrade.

I can vouch for small, canister CO2 systems like the below. I set up a ADA 60P back in 1995 with it and the tank flourished. Couldn't be simpler as the CO2 was connected to a HomeDepot timer.

They are common for smaller aquariums around the world and they work. Green Leaf Aquariums has come out with a similar system disposable CO2 for Nano Aquariums systems as well.

As a college student, I used DIY yeast CO2 systems that were hard work but they did work also. I just knew that supplemental CO2 would help my plants grow and so I figured out how to do it based on my budget (or lack thereof).

ADA has brochures for newbies that work well to walk them through the process. Have you seen it before? This is what I think is needed.

Sure, the above is focused on their products. You would do the same in their shoes. But Fluval or Hagen should have something similar. Heck, companies like Buceplant, BRS Fresh, etc should have these too.

I actually reached out to BRS Fresh when they opened to see if they wanted to partner on educating people (they have mostly reef customers) on how to properly set up planted aquariums. No response to this day...

Anyway, folks. My point is that the information is out there for those that look. I wish Google would be more helpful to forums like ours that have quality information rather than pointing people either to social media or semi-dead forums that have been around forever.

 

[Wet Elbows]

Economics is the driving force here. If these manufacturers thought there was a market, and a profit to be made, they would make the product. It's really an indictment of how small the planted niche is.

 

[Koan]

an indictment of how small the planted niche is.

Well the bedding plant racks at Home Depot, Lowe's, and Walmart every spring say people do really dig pretty plants.. oops no pun intended

I think the aquarium trade shoots itself in the foot by thinking like, well aquarists. Not like consumers.

Market segments are grown cross marketing is how you grow market segments. Teaching consumers they want something new, by tying it to something they are already fond of, already either have or want.

Friendly, familiar CO2 is already out there. The missing ingredient that can make the consumer able to grow beautiful underwater plants. A completely unrelated market segment has already made it available.

The consumer wants to see something recognizable and friendly, something that says 'ooh SodaStream, I know what that is. (That won't hurt me.) What is this new cool thing it does now?'

PetSmart and Petco are full of foot traffic all day everyday. Give people something simple, attractive and above all comfortingly familiar.

Then provide shiny, in-store displays of pretty underwater plants, showing off this new doohickey & demonstrably simple enough for even the store staff to maintain..