Count Krunk
Active Member
Awesome experiment. I'd like to give this a try.
In search of middle-earth - a quest for a middle energy tank
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Unexpected
Well-known Member
So, apparently the winning NBAT tank this year is relevant to this thread. Vin was reading through the details and is reporting NO3 levels in the 5 to 10ppm range with inert substrates, probably much lower PAR and substantially lower CO2. It's fascinating seeing their growth.
BenB
Active Member
I have to laugh. I read the title, but decided I was too lazy to read 81 posts to see if anyone mentioned Sudipta Shaw's talk at the AGA, but now I see that he is in the thread. I thought the talk was transformative. I hope people are trying it. 
ElleDee
Active Member
I have been very busy, and my tank has not got attention as needed. A quick tidy up today, and this is an evening shot. I like the relaxed dimmed light.
I am not sure if I continue the 10 ppm CO2 experiment, and how much I can learn. For just my one tank I've got to a clear conclusion that 10 ppm CO2 really works. Ideally more hobbyists would try, so that we get more data on more tanks. Perhaps I was just lucky, but I believe 10 ppm CO2 deserves some more experiments in the hobby so that we do not default to 30 ppm , and more, CO2.
I am still contemplating to quit this experiment, and give my reactor some work again and do 20-25 ppm CO2 for a change.
I am not sure if I continue the 10 ppm CO2 experiment, and how much I can learn. For just my one tank I've got to a clear conclusion that 10 ppm CO2 really works. Ideally more hobbyists would try, so that we get more data on more tanks. Perhaps I was just lucky, but I believe 10 ppm CO2 deserves some more experiments in the hobby so that we do not default to 30 ppm , and more, CO2.
I am still contemplating to quit this experiment, and give my reactor some work again and do 20-25 ppm CO2 for a change.
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SkaleyAquatics
Active Member
@Yugang in your experiments, what does 10ppm of co2 look like in terms of pH drop? I have been contemplating lowering co2 levels and nutrient levels overall in my tanks running co2 to slow growth some as keeping up with maintenance of soon to be 5 high energy tanks can become taxing at times. I have really been rereading burr comment here about what Vin has done:
Recommended planted aquarium fertilizer dosing - DIY specific
Recommended planted aquarium fertilizer dosing - DIY specific
Speaking of low energy routines
Personally, it is my firm belief that CO2 drives growth as much as ferts and even light. Low energy tanks can be very successful and grow amazing plants - as long as co2 is low too (and consistent!) Low ferts + Low CO2
Light can even be high, just need both low to moderate CO2, and low to moderate ferts. Wanna blast 200 uMol at the sub? Go for it. Just dont try to throw 40 ppm CO2 on a low energy/low fert routine
My friend Vin is having great success right now with his own low energy routine. (for those that dont know, Vin Kutty aka Saxa Tilly aka Pikez, author of the famed Rotala Kill Tank and Going Dutch w Aquasoil journals on barr report, and current AGA Judge)
He's not active much online these days but we still talk frequently. He sent me this a couple weeks ago. I asked him if it was OK to share his routine here and of course he said yes
Back story, he sorta just stumbled into this routine. About a year ago he got busy and had to be gone a lot, didnt really have time for it. Almost quit the hobby, but instead he just cranked everything down like screw it, we'll see what happens. Turns out it worked pretty damn good and saves a lot of time on maintenance
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Pic of 180 Gal
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Very old aquasoil btw. Micros are BurrAqua
After my pH probe broke down I didn't see the point of buying a new one. My CO2 is stable as I use overflow mode, and I use a drop checker to verify the ppm . Just to be sure that I am not totally off, I use about 1 bubble per second on a 50 gallon tank. So my 10 ppm is not really accurate, but the most important for me is that is it approximately correct and above all that it is stable.
I blame the winter solstice.... After nearly half a year experimenting with 10 ppm CO2, 24/7, 100 PAR I'm ready for some new experience again.
The 10 ppm CO2 exceeded my expectations, and I may go back to it in the future. Here is my tank after maintenance earlier today.
The CO2 Spray Bar that I used, 1 bps CO2 in overflow mode, 24/7
I have started using my reactor again, it will have about twice the injection rate of the CO2 Spray Bar, and I am curious how my tank will respond to 20 ppm CO2, and whether is will work better than the 10 ppm .
The 10 ppm CO2 exceeded my expectations, and I may go back to it in the future. Here is my tank after maintenance earlier today.
The CO2 Spray Bar that I used, 1 bps CO2 in overflow mode, 24/7
I have started using my reactor again, it will have about twice the injection rate of the CO2 Spray Bar, and I am curious how my tank will respond to 20 ppm CO2, and whether is will work better than the 10 ppm .
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Anonymous_One
Active Member
- Sep 1, 2024
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Am I remembering correctly that the 1 bps CO2 amount is for a 50 gallon tank? Is such a small dose really enough to achieve 10 ppm in a 50 gallon tank?
To be precise, about 1.2 bps. These are bubbles directly from the CO2 tube into water, probably a bit larger than most conventional bubble counters. Also, I am using a cover on my tank, which reduces gas exchange.
But yes, we can assume about 80% savings as compared to what is generally recommended for high tech. And of course it is MUCH easier, no need for all the dialling in and monitoring. If I ever want to go back to this condition, I'll hang my CO2 Spray Bar in, done in 5 minutes, give it about 1-1.5 bps for overflow mode, and "forget" about CO2 injection from then.
Perhaps I share my personal take away from this experiment, which is of course subjective.
It seems to me that the far majority of plants have no problem at all with 10 ppm CO2. Some, after acclimatisation, don't even care and continue to grow fast. Note, that following @sudiorca example, and perhaps against conventional wisdom in the hobby, I did NOT reduce my lighting.
So while I guess it is possible to create a really good 'high tech' aquascape when all the other factors are right, it is more challenging with only 10 ppm as (some) plants grow slower, and farming the volume of the groups one wants to play with takes more time. Also with this slower growth plants are more likely to get algae or manifest other imperfections.
With regards to low tech, non CO2 injected, I am very impressed what @sudiorca and other top scapers achieve, but it requires a lot of skill with the substrate and controlled decomposition of organics into CO2, as well as some other conditions like low temperature. Yet when injecting just a little, less skill is required and I ran my tank for most of the time just below 86 F / 30 C.
I get it that really active or competitive aqua scapers prefer high CO2, as well as beginners who may get some growth push to outgrow other issues with the plant.
I believe the 10 ppm CO2 could work for users who want a high tech feeling, but prefer stability, slow and easy.
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Help me with a math again, what kind of drop would you expect by harvesting something like the straight run of the Landen stainless lily pipe for the spray bar:
roughly 240 mm by 16 mm? For say a 60P / 26.23 gal tank?
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For CO2 Spray Bar, we need a stationary pocket of gas, with a water flow underneath. In this pipe, if I understand you correctly, you will have CO2 bubbles transported by the water flow, and it will probably act as an inferior reactor or inline diffuser.
Sorry I wasn't clear. I meant if I were to cut an opening out of the straight run of pipe and closed off the ends, same way you have made a cut out in your acrylic tube, using stainless for the aesthetics.
I apologise @Koan , I now see that I had not read your message carefully enough.
The 17.7 ratio for a 1.5 pH drop on a reactor is now pretty well established, but for a CO2 Spray Bar and a 10 ppm target I don't have accurate data yet and can only give my best estimation:
- When a CO2 Spray Bar receives a decent water flow, we do expect the diffusion boundary layer between water and CO2 to have an insignificant effect and the parameters are very similar to a reactor. However, when the water flow is low, perhaps <5 cm/second, a boundary layer builds up and we see the CO2 absorption being reduced. From experience, no formal testing involved yet, is that a CO2 Spray Bar under low water flow will be about half as efficient as under decent flow (5 cm/second and higher). This means that we need twice the water/CO2 interface for the same result.
- I don't have the exact ratio for 10 ppm yet, but my best estimation is that we need to apply a factor of 100, rather than the 17.7 that we always use for a 1.5 pH drop.
I hope this helps, and sorry that at this moment I cannot offer more than an estimation.
SkaleyAquatics
Active Member
So I was going to ask questions regarding this to number 3. specifically but glad I was reading through this first before I did. But do have some follow up questions regarding Co2 ppm at different pH/kH values. I have commonly seen(especially on here), many of us running near 0/no kH with no regards to pH value besides the drop we are seeing between between fully saturated CO2 levels and degassed samples. Does that pH drop have any relation to kH at say 15? So if I am targeting 15ppm CO2 in a tank with 8.2/8.4 pH and high kH (need to remeasure) would I be essentially looking for a pH drop of 0.5? I personally have not seen documentation of this. Maybe in the past this was documented better and some digging would be necessary. I also just do not see any data supporting this(Not saying you are wrong) just have not personally seen many documenting it. While yes I am thinking of testing the spray bar you describe and am thinking a 15ppm target follows my goals for this tank while also attempting to reach more users, especially in my area.
SkaleyAquatics
Active Member
I had a feeling it was low, very jealous of you all in the Pacific NW.
I set up a version of the CO2 Spray Bar/Open Flow Reactor today for a 30 cm cube tank. I’m only aiming for a 10-15 ppm concentration that I can leave running 24/7. I used a fairly straight section of aquarium tubing, 8.75 cm long with an inner diameter of 13 mm, and 2 uxcell clear vinyl screw protectors for end caps. All of it was very easy to cut with scissors. I forgot to account for the end caps covering part of the length when I did the math, but I figured it was close enough. I did cut the screw protectors shorter, so that helps.
I think it looks decent for the convenience. I have it set in overflow mode, with just 1 bubble/8 seconds coming through the Fzone bubble counter. It’s the Fzone DIY set that uses citric acid and baking soda. I figure even though it’s DIY it should be very stable using the spray bar. I’ll have to check tomorrow to see what the ph drop is using an API liquid test. I don’t want to buy another pH pen, but when Hanna eventually sends that CO2 checker kit I’ll try that too.
What’s nice is that I didn’t have to buy anything to do this. It was all just stuff I already had in the closet.
I think it looks decent for the convenience. I have it set in overflow mode, with just 1 bubble/8 seconds coming through the Fzone bubble counter. It’s the Fzone DIY set that uses citric acid and baking soda. I figure even though it’s DIY it should be very stable using the spray bar. I’ll have to check tomorrow to see what the ph drop is using an API liquid test. I don’t want to buy another pH pen, but when Hanna eventually sends that CO2 checker kit I’ll try that too.
What’s nice is that I didn’t have to buy anything to do this. It was all just stuff I already had in the closet.