In search of middle-earth - a quest for a middle energy tank

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Art

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Sorry about the click-bait aspect to the title but it's the first thing I thought of when thinking about what I'm trying to do. No, it's not trying to find middle-earth although that would be pretty cool. It's about trying to find that mythical setting where my tank is not low energy nor high energy. I can keep stem plants but they are not turbo growing on a weekly basis.

I will begin my quest by asking a question: Is it possible to have healthy, growing stem plants in an environment that doesn't require weekly trimming or pushing the limits of light and CO2?

If you know the answer to be "yes" then please tell me how and if this is how you've run your tanks. What's the secret to making this work?
 
Of course, after my post, Mr. Cohen decides to post this! How can I cut my addiction to full, pedal to the metal high energy stems when people keep posting things like this!!

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I am very interested in this thread, it is actually one of my pet projects to better understand if there is in fact a continuum from "low tech" (no CO2 injected) to "high tech" (up to 30-60 ppm CO2 injected), rather than the traditional perspective of seeing these as 2 distinct categories with nothing in-between.

 
This is a really good question. It is something I am working on in my personal tank at home. It has been running without CO2 and neglected for the past few months, 2 weeks ago I started taking care of it again to bring it back to health. I decided to keep the CO2 off because I just don't have time for an 8 foot high tech tank right now. My 1000 gallon high tech professional tank also keeps my planted tank appetite pretty satisfied.

Running a no CO2 tank Is also an opportunity for me to learn. I started with low-tech tanks but I knew nothing about growing plants then so my tanks were ugly and full of algae. I want to see what is possible without CO2 injection with all the new knowledge I've acquired. If I am left wanting more of my tank, I will experiment with slowly increasing CO2 levels. But it's only been 2 weeks and no CO2 injection is looking promising. The tank still has a long way to go to my final vision but the plants are doing well. I will make journal soon to share more details.20240718_163839.jpg
 
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As I've mentioned before, this is my jam. We're coming to this idea from different directions though. You are starting high energy and trying to cut back, while I started out going for the most humble, bomb proof low lech tank possible and am working my way up. The mentality is a little different, probably. I've got several tanks, but this is my highest light one yesterday:

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It's still a work in progress, but I'm happy to talk about my methods and what I have learned.

First, a lot of the same principles apply to all tanks. Most of the algae causes and solutions are exactly the same with or without CO2 supplementation. Healthy plant mass is the key to ward off algae, as is finding balance between lighting, the plants, and nutrients. Obviously I can't adjust my CO2, but all the other techniques are on the board to be deployed as needed. Maintenance is similar to a high tech tank - I clean the top of the substrate, remove old and damaged leaves, scrape the front glass if I need to, etc., but because growth is slower, there’s less to do overall. And there’s less of a penalty for a period of neglect. I find that a weekly big water change is always beneficial and stick to that schedule most of the time, but in my most stable tanks I can and do go a month without much worry.

As for factors that are important to medium energy specifically, the biggest one is probably the substrate, specifically an active substrate with organic material. (If someone has been pulling it off in inert sand I’d love to see it, but I think it puts you at a disadvantage at a minimum.) As I see it, a functioning substrate is the foundation for all other success in the tank. It’s the driver of available CO2, provides the majority of the plant nutrients, and houses the majority of the bacteria. I know that you can just feed from the water column, but I’ve had better luck keeping the water column lean and taking advantage of all the specialized adaptations found in the roots.

It’s tricky though, because you need to have the right amount of organics - too little and growth is poor, and too much and algae becomes a menace. I know Sudipta recommends the original Amazonia and I assume that’s good advice, but personally I had a great experience using a raised bed mix mixed with a little of my iron-rich clay I dug out of my side yard. The organic matter in the mix is mostly composted pine and sphagnum moss, which are pretty slow to break down and I never had an unmanageable flood of nutrients right at the beginning that many people experience. And while I initially worried about the soil becoming depleted, my oldest tank is an absolute rock 4.5 years in, churning out clean growth with ease and managing the same species as the tank above, just with less color and sometimes different growth patterns due to having less light. (I am a bit baffled about this honestly, but the proof is in the puddling.)

The next most important factor is, unfortunately, patience. I plan on a new tank taking a year to find its feet. I know, that’s a long time! But I have found I need to include fast growing species and floating plants initially, and then as the scape grows in I can take them out and introduce more sensitive stuff. (I can’t even keep floating plants alive in the long term - the water column is too lean.) It just takes a long time for the tank to mature, which I assume is largely due to the microbiome not being established, hindering endogenous CO2 production, and not yet having healthy plant mass, enabling algae. This is another aspect I don’t fully understand the mechanics of, but experience has shown me that introducing novel species is way harder in a new tank and it’s better to just wait. I also start with a bit lower lighting, so the plant colors are not as vibrant until I can crank it up. I do get a bit jealous when I see a high tech tank that looks full and luscious 6 weeks after planting, but I haven’t been able to pull that off. On the other hand, I’ve had lots of problems that just go away on their own with time, which is pretty great too.

I think it pays to do a lot of research on plant selection. I know there's a lot of emphasis in some circles on growing plants that are seen as difficult or demanding, but I would dropkick that mentality into the sun for this kind of setup. It is mind poison, truly. You need to pick plants because you like how they look and you think you can grow them successfully! Go back and look at less demanding plants and look at them with fresh eyes and see what you respond to. It's not all green! Tiger lotus and Ludwigia 'Super Red' are classics for a reason. Rotala 'Blood Red' is fast coming up the ranks for good reason IMO. Like I said before, you need easy plants to help get things going and once then you can branch out once everything is growing well. I know you love stem plants @Art, but I would encourage you to consider bulb and rosette plants. There are a ton of crypts with interesting colors and textures that are absolute workhorses in low tech tanks. Once they are fully grown in (which, again, requires patience), crypts cannot be overrated IMO. There are colorful, carefree Echinodorus and striking Aponogeton. Buce can color up nicely, but that’s another waiting game.

There are a million other odds and ends that I believe help, but I don’t really know how much because I haven’t experimented with changing them. For example, I run my tanks in the lower 70s as a matter of course. I understand this increases dissolved oxygen levels compared to higher temperatures and other people find it makes a big difference. My tap water is soft and again, I hear that’s great, but it’s all I know. I remineralize to ~4 dGH because I have shrimp.

There are other factors I’m more ambivalent about. Flow and filtration, for instance - I think you need some, but I know that it’s that big of a deal. "Flow is king" seems like a bit much. I have a fertilizer strategy that is working for me (lean water column, rich substrate) but I am not a fertilizer micromanager by any stretch. I couldn’t be one if I wanted to - between the soil, my livestock waste and my tap water there are too many unquantified inputs to try to impose ratios or what have you. Other techniques may work fine too, I’m just disinterested in investigating. I’ve done a dry start and a dark start and don’t know that it helped much in the initial setup period. I don't have much to say about lighting other than if you don't have enough PAR your colors won't be as good. I don't even know what PAR I'm running anyway. The point is, I am not really focused on any of these things. Maybe I will come to realize they are super important down the road.

On a final note, I have one big factor working against me - my ph is just south of 7 and thus am not maximizing my co2 availability like I would if it was under 6. I have considered fixing this with strong acids, but have decided that I am too lazy and risk adverse, so I am just accepting it as is. Maybe later I will be tempted to mess with it, who knows.
 
Is it possible to have healthy, growing stem plants in an environment that doesn't require weekly trimming or pushing the limits of light and CO2?
Sure it is possible…

But, which look do you want?

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This?
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Or this?

My Samolous was growing well and healthy but pretty green.

I increased co2, added some root tabs and increased the light and a few weeks later took the top pic…


Depends what plants you want to grow…
 
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Sure it is possible…

But, which look do you want?

View attachment 5390

This?
View attachment 5391
Or this?

My Samolous was growing well and healthy but pretty green.

I increased co2, added some root tabs and increased the light and a few weeks later took the top pic…


Depends what plants you want to grow…
But look at the difference in the rock colors between the two pictures. Unless the CO2 colored up the gravel as well I'd say changing the lighting had quite a lot of influence on the vibrancy. I experienced this when I upgraded to my chihiros and about fell out of my chair at the instant "improvement."
 
But look at the difference in the rock colors between the two pictures. Unless the CO2 colored up the gravel as well I'd say changing the lighting had quite a lot of influence on the vibrancy.
Fair enough, but I was out oftown when I posted and limited to photos in my phone.

Here is a current photo with original lights…

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Vs
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Photo taken June 23. Same lights as pic taken above. About 4 weeks of higher co2, root tabs and increased light intensity…
 
Perhaps oversimplifying and not fully doing justice, it seems almost that the hobby has two camps. The high tech hobbyists, who usually like to inject a lot and often believe that more CO2 is better. And the non CO2 injected tanks, but they require in fact an even more subtle management of CO2 as they leverage 'natural' CO2 production in the tank.

I am particularly interested in the middle ground, or perhaps even the lower middle ground. Can a slow tank be build that does not need as much cool, patience and dirt as a low tech, and relies on just a tiny bit of CO2 injection using the simplest tools?

Now is not the right time for me, but I am making here a note to myself and have a new experiment in mind for a future project.

My future experiment will be to inject only 10% of what is commonly done in high tech, without having to resort to low temperature (HK is subtropical) and the soil activity (CO2 production by organics and microorganisms) of low tech tanks.

For my 50 gallon tank I would use a 25.000 mm2 reactor to push about 1.5 pH drop in overflow mode. For this experiment let's reduce that by a factor of 10 to 2.500 mm2. This would be a really small horizontal reactor, so why not forget the reactor and go back to my original project of the CO2 Spray Bar that works on the same principles?


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For the target 2.500 mm2 I would need just 10 cm of a 1 inch tube, that I can place in the tank.

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CO2 Spray Bar works in overflow mode so will guarantee a stable injection rate and unlike a diffuser or similar will not be dependent on the stability of my regulator. At this low injection rate I would probably keep it on continuously, day and night, for the best stability in the tank.

With this experiment I would continuously inject just a little CO2, and I would be really interested if that could be an alternative to the soil function in a low tech tank. Of course I would reduce light as well, so that CO2 and light remain balanced and I would target a slower growth and easier to maintain tank. At this low injection rate, how much compromise for the choice of plants, and appearance, would it be as compared to a full 1-1.5 pH drop?

I can probably do project this later this year, but of course for anyone else interested it would be nice to team up.
 
Perhaps oversimplifying and not fully doing justice, it seems almost that the hobby has two camps. The high tech hobbyists, who usually like to inject a lot and often believe that more CO2 is better. And the non CO2 injected tanks, but they require in fact an even more subtle management of CO2 as they leverage 'natural' CO2 production in the tank.

I am particularly interested in the middle ground, or perhaps even the lower middle ground. Can a slow tank be build that does not need as much cool, patience and dirt as a low tech, and relies on just a tiny bit of CO2 injection using the simplest tools?
I am interested in both camps and the middle…

I was running lower co2 and bought some red plants from an etsy dealer a d they arrived brilliantly colored.. and just tiny snippets a few inches long…. But Ifigured I could grow them out and make more…


Within weeks the colors faded. The plants were growing well and healthy and algae free, but not as vibrant as I received them.

Pumping up the co2 and lights has improved their coloration, but they certainly are still not as vibrant as they first arrived…

You can certainly have a very nice tank with moderate to low co2 injection, (and with no injection). But certain plants will likely be much greener or bronze than a higher co2 level.
 
You can certainly have a very nice tank with moderate to low co2 injection, (and with no injection). But certain plants will likely be much greener or bronze than a higher co2 level.
I hope that we could have some nice full tank shots in this thread as inspiration and also to have a better feel how much compromise there is. We could make a long list of benefits of low injection (livestock health, CO2 consumption and other expenses, maintenance, fault tolerances), so it seems worth exploring and optimising, or worst case collect some evidence if it appears not a great place to be.

I am really fascinated by low tech, no injection at all, but for various reasons it is not the best choice for me. I posted some time ago the following thread, with several examples that are really inspiring to try and do the same. Some tanks seem no compromise at all, and one would even consider how this could be done without CO2 injection.

 
Fair enough, but I was out oftown when I posted and limited to photos in my phone.

Here is a current photo with original lights…

View attachment 5393

Vs
View attachment 5395



Photo taken June 23. Same lights as pic taken above. About 4 weeks of higher co2, root tabs and increased light intensity…

I appreciate this comparison. I think if you could successfully push more light without CO2 you could get more color. I'm not saying it would be 100% indistinguishable from what you would get with CO2, just that I don't think you were topping out yet.

My Rotala 'Blood Red is probably the brightest red in my tank now, but it took a while to work to that. This is 2 years ago right after I upgraded the light.

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I was sooo excited to see the pink at the tips and all the pearling! But this color is just terrible compared to how it is now. 💀

I posted some time ago the following thread, with several examples that are really inspiring to try and do the same. Some tanks seem no compromise at all, and one would even consider how this could be done without CO2 injection.

I think the compromise is that they are limiting themselves to what works. If you look at the red plants for example you see a lot of AR, some Ludwigia 'Super Red', some rotala (maybe 'Blood Red? H'ra?), a few red crypts, and not much else. When everything is done well you notice how nice the scape looks and don't think about what species aren't there. It's smart and effective.

The idea of running less CO2 in general is appealing to me too. It definitely feels out of fashion right now, though I know there are some inspirational tanks on the Tropica website that explicitly run <30 ppm CO2.
 
I appreciate this comparison. I think if you could successfully push more light without CO2 you could get more color. I'm not saying it would be 100% indistinguishable from what you would get with CO2, just that I don't think you were topping out yet.
Before I increased the co2, I couldnt increase the light. I had tried but would get wisps of algae starting and green agae starting to coat the leaves. I was rather nervous about increasing the co2 and increasing the light intensity as well as I was comfortable with the balance I had achieved, being able to keep algae at bay, but I also had evidence that more intense coloration was possible as the plants arrived with more.


My Rotala 'Blood Red is probably the brightest red in my tank now, but it took a while to work to that. This is 2 years ago right after I upgraded the light.

View attachment 5396
I was sooo excited to see the pink at the tips and all the pearling! But this color is just terrible compared to how it is now. 💀


I think the compromise is that they are limiting themselves to what works. If you look at the red plants for example you see a lot of AR, some Ludwigia 'Super Red', some rotala (maybe 'Blood Red? H'ra?), a few red crypts, and not much else. When everything is done well you notice how nice the scape looks and don't think about what species aren't there. It's smart and effective.

There is no question one can have a stunning tank without co2 or lower levels with careful plSnt selection. I consider working within those limitations an artform in itself.
The idea of running less CO2 in general is appealing to me too. It definitely feels out of fashion right now, though I know there are some inspirational tanks on the Tropica website that explicitly run <30 ppm CO2.

I think I will always have some tanks running CO2 and relatively higher amounts, but I am thinking of trying another non co2 tank and expanding my skills in that direction as well.
 
I will likely experiment with this on my rank later this year as well. Just going to give the 0 CO2 injection a few months as a control.
I just built a small CO2 Spray Bar, the silicon glue will be drying overnight.

CO2 Spray Bar is 17 cm long, 1 inch, about 4000 mm2 for a 50 gallon tank. That is only 15% of my original reactor CO2 injection rate.

I am going to use this CO2 Spray Bar in overflow mode, so that it stabilises the CO2. Perhaps inject 24/7, not sure yet.

As one can't be half pregnant, I may pull out my reactor soon and just go for it. Not sure how the tank will do, but I am cautiously optimistic.
 
I installed a drop checker at 2 dKH, this is a good indicator for CO2 in the range of 15 ppm. Its colour suggests that the tank is around 10-15ppm.

I continue to use the lid covering the tank, for an open tank CO2 would have been even lower but this may be a good start.

Can't do science with one tank and no statistics, but the least I can do is post a FTS of my tank today as a reference. Over the past weeks I have been rescaping and experimenting with lower CO2 as well as limiting gas exchange, but if I could keep the tank comparable to this going forward I would consider that a good result.

Wallichii, that I use as indicator plant for CO2 is mildly unhappy, but I expect it to be outright angry for the next period as it has to make up its mind to settle with the new CO2 level, or calling it quits.

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I am using the CO2 Spray Bar in overflow mode, this stabilises the injection rate, and consumption is now so low that I feel it is both economical and beneficial to inject 24/7. Combined with the lid, that reduces outgassing, I believe this is as stable CO2 as one can get. Of course I am worried about BBA, but hope that with a good maintenance I can get away with suboptimal CO2. I continue to do high flow, and won't change EI fertilisation or light. My tank is warm, that's definitely a disadvantage for low tech but will hopefully be less of a problem when supplementing a little bit of CO2. This will be my experiment for the coming period, low CO2 but very stable, and see what it leads to.

It would be great if we had a few more hobbyists trying low CO2, so that we can share experience in 'Team 2 dKH ' :)
 
Yes, there is a way to do it, and dare I say, it was the original way of dosing CO2. Use of C02 in tanks has been around for a long time, at least 40 years plus, and before high intensity lighting like LED, T5 or metal halide was around. People simply supplemented with CO2, ie replacing the CO2 that the plants start taking out when they start to photosynthesise at lights on. There used to be guides as to you many BPS depending on tank size, and those that could afford it used a CO2 meter and set it to turn on the CO2 when the pH started to increase after lights on. I ran a tank using the latter method for many years and it worked very well.
 
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I don't have any scientific evidence but I am pushing more than 150 PAR at the substrate level (I did use a PAR meter and I will share the images sometime in the future) in majority of my tanks with minimal algae for most of the year unless there is major lapse in maintenance for several weeks or some kind of imbalance in the tank) and I am not injecting pressurized CO2.
I find this fascinating, @sudiorca goes against conventional wisdom and pushes quite significant light PAR in a tank that is not supplemented with CO2. I am now nearly a week into my adventure with low CO2, 10-15 ppm 24/7 and very stable.

Plant growth is significantly down, driven by a reduction of CO2 - but NO reduction of light which is usually seen as the diver for growth. I believe the tank is at approximately 100- 120 PAR. It is too early to see how plants will adapt, there is not much new growth to observe if that is healthy or not, but so far I see no reason to worry. I just did my weekly maintenance, and paid even more attention to reduction of waste organics, as I hope that will be the key to success.,

Anyone has a guess why I am going to regret this? Am I going to see plant health issues in the new growth, a tank crash, or perhaps BBA?
 
I find this fascinating, @sudiorca goes against conventional wisdom and pushes quite significant light PAR in a tank that is not supplemented with CO2. I am now nearly a week into my adventure with low CO2, 10-15 ppm 24/7 and very stable.

Plant growth is significantly down, driven by a reduction of CO2 - but NO reduction of light which is usually seen as the diver for growth. I believe the tank is at approximately 100- 120 PAR. It is too early to see how plants will adapt, there is not much new growth to observe if that is healthy or not, but so far I see no reason to worry. I just did my weekly maintenance, and paid even more attention to reduction of waste organics, as I hope that will be the key to success.,

Anyone has a guess why I am going to regret this? Am I going to see plant health issues in the new growth, a tank crash, or perhaps BBA?
I wouldn't worry prematurely - it might be fine!
 
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