how to dose an aquarium with dry chemicals ?

[anewbie]

I'm setting up a 550 and 450 aquarium and i think using liquids is too expensive so i want to dry dose but i'm trying to figure out how much of what chemicals i should buy to last a while. The problem i have is for example take this chart (from the custom micro mix thread):

I believe the units are ppm per 10 gallons; but how do i convert the ppm to grams of solid chemicals (or better tsp) ? Also how much macros do i need?

What I'm trying to do is figure out how much chemical to order from nilogc to last a year or two - i can then buy a gram scale; mix all the chemicals together in a dry container and each week measure it out on a scale - disolve it in some ro water and dose - that is the general plan but doing the translation of different units into something i can measure .... while i can use a gram scale - obviously tsb units would be a lot faster.
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I did notice that later @GreggZ does provide a table that shows grams (again i think this is per 10 gallons so i would multiple by 55 to get my target per week - correct me if i am mistaken)

(even more confusing is the table above does not match the grams @GreggZ list in his article - i.e, iron is the same but everything else is off by a factor of 10; why is iron the same but everything else off ?)

(this is the later table where things are off by a factor of 10):

But this is jsut micro and not macros; where do i find a table for the macros ?

(btw BurrAqua is not live so effectively a bad link)
--
My understanding is the macros are N,P,K and if the above table is for 10 gallons of dosing; then if i dose k2hpo4 90mg, CSM+B , k2so4 633mg (which seems odd since I need 10grams of fe - so who knows if i am doing this correctly.

Oh well i think this is a good start for a posting since i'm totally lost.

 

[klibs]

Rotala Butterfly | Planted Aquarium Nutrient Dosing Calculator

Planted Aquarium Nutrient Dosing Calculator

rotalabutterfly.com

 

[GreggZ]

I believe the units are ppm per 10 gallons; but how do i convert the ppm to grams of solid chemicals (or better tsp) ?

This chart reflects my own micro dosing for my 120g tank. I base the amounts on the overall water volume of 105 gallons. Keep in mind that I make a solution. These are not dry dosed. My solution is created so that 20 ml per day supplies the
daily ppm listed for my 105G of actual water. I hope that makes sense.

What I'm trying to do is figure out how much chemical to order from nilogc to last a year or two - i can then buy a gram scale; mix all the chemicals together in a dry container and each week measure it out on a scale - disolve it in some ro water and dose - that is the general plan but doing the translation of different units into something i can measure .... while i can use a gram scale - obviously tsb units would be a lot faster.

You will want a gram scale not tsp's. We are measuring some very small amounts here. And you do not want to mix the dry amounts together and then scoop some out. You will never have the same relative ppm with each scoop.

I did notice that later @GreggZ does provide a table that shows grams (again i think this is per 10 gallons so i would multiple by 55 to get my target per week - correct me if i am mistaken)

(even more confusing is the table above does not match the grams @GreggZ list in his article - i.e, iron is the same but everything else is off by a factor of 10; why is iron the same but everything else off ?)

I am glad you caught this. There are errors in the top chart. It's my fault I transferred these to a new spreadsheet to make it more readable and clearly did not proof it.

The numbers listed on the picture of the 1,000 ml container are correct. I will go back and edit the chart. But keep in mind those gram amounts are specific to my tank volume, the size of my solution container, the ppm I want to achieve, and the amount I dose daily.

Here is the actual spreadsheet that I use for micros.



To better understand let's take a look at the Iron DTPA 11%.

I am making a 1,000 ml solution. I want 20ml of that solution to add 0.0571 ppm of Fe to my 105G of water.

Here is the calculation on Rotalabutterfly. Once you understand that you are your way.

And keep in mind this is for someone who wants to make their own custom micro blend. There are shelf products that can also be used. If you want to pick up the things you need to make your own customer solution then message @Burr740 here (Joe Harvey). He sells packages which makes it easy as you can get it all from one source.

My understanding is the macros are N,P,K and if the above table is for 10 gallons of dosing; then if i dose k2hpo4 90mg, CSM+B , k2so4 633mg (which seems odd since I need 10grams of fe - so who knows if i am doing this correctly.

Macros are different than micros as they are dosed in larger amounts. With larger tanks it doesn't make sense to make a solution. You would hit solubility limits unless you had a VERY large container. So instead macros are usually dry dosed into a larger tank.

The first thing you need to decide is how many ppm of each you want to provide, and then how often you want to dose. Personally I dose all macros up front after a water change but some dose smaller doses throughout the week. Why is a much longer discussion.

Once again the calculators are your friend. Let's say I wanted to calculate a dose that would raise the NO3 in my 105 gallons of water by 10 ppm. Here is the calculation. As you can see if I add 6.48 grams of KNO3 it raises my NO3 by 10 ppm in my 105 gallons of water. Once again if you understand that you are on your way with macros.



I hope that is helpful. Once you understand how to use the calculator it's really not as complicated as it seems. If you need help let me know how many ppm of what you want to provide and I could help as to how to enter it into the calculator.

 

[anewbie]

This chart reflects my own micro dosing for my 120g tank. I base the amounts on the overall water volume of 105 gallons. Keep in mind that I make a solution. These are not dry dosed. My solution is created so that 20 ml per day supplies the
daily ppm listed for my 105G of actual water. I hope that makes sense.


You will want a gram scale not tsp's. We are measuring some very small amounts here. And you do not want to mix the dry amounts together and then scoop some out. You will never have the same relative ppm with each scoop.


I am glad you caught this. There are errors in the top chart. It's my fault I transferred these to a new spreadsheet to make it more readable and clearly did not proof it.

The numbers listed on the picture of the 1,000 ml container are correct. I will go back and edit the chart. But keep in mind those gram amounts are specific to my tank volume, the size of my solution container, the ppm I want to achieve, and the amount I dose daily.

Here is the actual spreadsheet that I use for micros.

View attachment 1762

To better understand let's take a look at the Iron DTPA 11%.

I am making a 1,000 ml solution. I want 20ml of that solution to add 0.0571 ppm of Fe to my 105G of water.

Here is the calculation on Rotalabutterfly. Once you understand that you are your way.

And keep in mind this is for someone who wants to make their own custom micro blend. There are shelf products that can also be used. If you want to pick up the things you need to make your own customer solution then message @Burr740 here (Joe Harvey). He sells packages which makes it easy as you can get it all from one source.

View attachment 1763



Macros are different than micros as they are dosed in larger amounts. With larger tanks it doesn't make sense to make a solution. You would hit solubility limits unless you had a VERY large container. So instead macros are usually dry dosed into a larger tank.

The first thing you need to decide is how many ppm of each you want to provide, and then how often you want to dose. Personally I dose all macros up front after a water change but some dose smaller doses throughout the week. Why is a much longer discussion.

Once again the calculators are your friend. Let's say I wanted to calculate a dose that would raise the NO3 in my 105 gallons of water by 10 ppm. Here is the calculation. As you can see if I add 6.48 grams of KNO3 it raises my NO3 by 10 ppm in my 105 gallons of water. Once again if you understand that you are on your way with macros.

View attachment 1764

I hope that is helpful. Once you understand how to use the calculator it's really not as complicated as it seems. If you need help let me know how many ppm of what you want to provide and I could help as to how to enter it into the calculator.

I have two problems - first does KNO3 cover all the macros; and more importantly how do i set the target - i only does once a week unless there is a specific issue and try to be a bit weak on nitrate since fishes are adding their own nitrate - but all these calculators assume you know how much you want to put in the water and I have no clue how much i want to put in the water - i actually want the min i require to maintain decent (but maybe not optimal) plant growth as my first priority are the fishes and I want to not put chemicals in that will harm them or shorten their longevity.
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For the micros is it cost effective to buy liquid for this volume of water (across all 6 large aquarium we are talking around 1400 gallons; of which only 2 are co2 injected - the 550 and 160).
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As a recap it sounds like you are saying buy micros but mix them every xxx months in a liquid that is pumped into the aquarium at some quantity that i can only guess - i could take your ingrediants i guess and scale it by 5 for the 550 and 1.5 for the 160 but for the macro i would still have to guess the target - in your example you use 10ppm but why 10 - why not 15 or 5 - what I'm asking is there a methodology for which you chose 10. Btw putting in 10ppm of nitrate means my base nitrate level is 10 and i'd love to keep the fish as close to 5ppm nitrate to begin with which is a concern.

 

[klibs]

No the KNO3 will only give you N/K. Use the rotalabutterfly calculator it will tell you how many ppm of each nutrient some amount of chemical will add to your tank. Then do the math on how much you want to dose and go from there. I find that N/P are by far the most important macros to balance.

I personally use the following to dose various macros:

N - KNO3
P - KH2PO4
K - GH Booster when I buffer my GH. K2SO4 works good too but usually you won't need extra K. Extra K generally does not cause any issues though.

I personally don't bother with making my own liquid solutions because IMO it is a pain in the ass, I don't want to bother with the math, and I don't have an automated dosing pump anyways. I just use measuring spoons to put dry fertilizers directly in my sump to add xx ppm of whatever nutrients I am in need of a few times a week.

For example if you want to dose 5ppm of nitrates in your tank you can very easily plug your tank volume into rotalabutterfly calculator and it will tell you how many tsp of what nutrient will get you there

Don't overthink it if you don't have to. As long as your nutrients aren't bottoming out and you aren't way overdosing things / letting levels build up over time (50% water changes prevent this) you should generally be fine. I personally run my tank very lean and am not at all strict about dosing and my tank has been doing just fine.

Every tank is different though, just my 2 cents

 

[anewbie]

No the KNO3 will only give you N/K. Use the rotalabutterfly calculator it will tell you how many ppm of each nutrient some amount of chemical will add to your tank. Then do the math on how much you want to dose and go from there. I find that N/P are by far the most important macros to balance.

I personally use the following to dose various macros:

N - KNO3
P - KH2PO4
K - GH Booster when I buffer my GH. K2SO4 works good too but usually you won't need extra K. Extra K generally does not cause any issues though.

I personally don't bother with making my own liquid solutions because IMO it is a pain in the ass, I don't want to bother with the math, and I don't have an automated dosing pump anyways. I just use measuring spoons to put dry fertilizers directly in my sump to add xx ppm of whatever nutrients I am in need of a few times a week.

For example if you want to dose 5ppm of nitrates in your tank you can very easily plug your tank volume into rotalabutterfly calculator and it will tell you how many tsp of what nutrient will get you there

Don't overthink it if you don't have to. As long as your nutrients aren't bottoming out and you aren't way overdosing things / letting levels build up over time (50% water changes prevent this) you should generally be fine. I personally run my tank very lean and am not at all strict about dosing and my tank has been doing just fine.

Every tank is different though, just my 2 cents

Do i need to worry about the exact target - i.e, using hte calculator linked in the 2nd post suggest i need approx 3/4 tsp of k2hpo4+3 1/2 tsp of kno3+1tsp of csm (the calculator recommend several times a week but since i always under dose i'd do this once a week) and call it a day (maybe add some micro now and then).

 

[JPog]

Do i need to worry about the exact target - i.e, using hte calculator linked in the 2nd post suggest i need approx 3/4 tsp of k2hpo4+3 1/2 tsp of kno3+1tsp of csm (the calculator recommend several times a week but since i always under dose i'd do this once a week) and call it a day (maybe add some micro now and then).

On the macros no, i wouldn't worry about exact measurements. If you look at EI type dosing the guidelines are are in ranges, plus every tank is fluid in terms of uptake. Add more plants, you have more uptake, trim, higher light, different species. Things should be consistent but they don't have to be eact IMO.

Also I wouldn't worry too much about high DOSED nitrates. Completely different than naturally occurring nitrates that come with toxic baggage. As you probably know, many here pre-dose their macros for the week in one dose without any ill effects.

 

[anewbie]

On the macros no, i wouldn't worry about exact measurements. If you look at EI type dosing the guidelines are are in ranges, plus every tank is fluid in terms of uptake. Add more plants, you have more uptake, trim, higher light, different species. Things should be consistent but they don't have to be eact IMO.

Also I wouldn't worry too much about high DOSED nitrates. Completely different than naturally occurring nitrates that come with toxic baggage. As you probably know, many here pre-dose their macros for the week in one dose without any ill effects.

Am i better off with

NA EI Based NPK & CSM+B Dry Aquarium Salt Fertilizer Package

EI Based NPK + CSM+B with GH Booster for Aquarium Plants The CSM+B and GH fertilizer include all the essential micro and macronutrients for healthy plant growth Quantities of the CSM+B and GH fertilizer are appropriate for dosing via the EI(Estimative Index) method Contains the following: -2lb...

nilocg.com

or

NA EI Based NPK & CSM+B Dry Aquarium Salt Fertilizer Package

EI Based NPK + CSM+B with GH Booster for Aquarium Plants The CSM+B and GH fertilizer include all the essential micro and macronutrients for healthy plant growth Quantities of the CSM+B and GH fertilizer are appropriate for dosing via the EI(Estimative Index) method Contains the following: -2lb...

nilocg.com

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I can't quite figure out what the gh booster is providing. I lean towards sa fishes and don't want to make the water too hard but it sounds like the gh component is target towards micros.
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Also do i have to worry that much about micro - i mean it sounds like most of them are added in traces so if i just sprinkle in a little liquid now and then would that be adequate (in addition to adding iron which seems to be required in higher concentration).
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Is it better to use kh2po4 (potasium) or k2so4 (potasium) ?

 

[Immortal1]

Most of us use KH2PO4 as it provides Phosphate, plus some Potassium.
If you are just looking to add more Potassium, then the K2SO4 works very nicely.
I did not specifically see if you were using tap water or RO for your water changes. Typically GH booster would only be used to re-mineralize RO water. My personal problem with most GH boosters is they add ALOT of Potassium. I prefer adding in my own amounts of Calcium and Magnesium, then add in how much additional Potassium I would like to have based - taking in to account how much Potassium is being added by the KNO3 and the KH2PO4.

 

[JPog]

I think you'll get alot of differing approaches here. As @Immortal1 stated most who use tap don't need the booster, unless your water is extremely soft and need to add GH. I have pretty soft water in New York and don't use a booster. I also haven't been adding in the K2SO4, since I feel I get enough from the KNO3 and KH2PO4, but adding it in certainly won't hurt anything if your buying the set.

Looks like the set with the booster doesn't include K2SO4 since the booster contains alot, but as I said I don't even add it without the booster.

I premix (dry) my KNO3 and KH2PO4 in a 5 to 1 ratio and keep it in a little plastic container and dose it dry with a measuring spoon into a cup, stire it and dump it into the tank. I would definitely use a micromix on a regular basis even if it's in very small amounts.

 

[anewbie]

I think you'll get alot of differing approaches here. As @Immortal1 stated most who use tap don't need the booster, unless your water is extremely soft and need to add GH. I have pretty soft water in New York and don't use a booster. I also haven't been adding in the K2SO4, since I feel I get enough from the KNO3 and KH2PO4, but adding it in certainly won't hurt anything if your buying the set.

Looks like the set with the booster doesn't include K2SO4 since the booster contains alot, but as I said I don't even add it without the booster.

I premix (dry) my KNO3 and KH2PO4 in a 5 to 1 ratio and keep it in a little plastic container and dose it dry with a measuring spoon into a cup, stire it and dump it into the tank. I would definitely use a micromix on a regular basis even if it's in very small amounts.

micro mix premixed or do you mix your own? My tap is not super soft (gh 7/tds 120-130); but i will be mixing it with ro water as the fishes i'm keeping require softer water. The 550 (which is co2 injected) I will mix 2 part tap with 1 part ro (using gh booster would defeat the use of ro to soften the water) - this aquarium will have loaches and a few cichild (some wild caught but not super delicate and some tank raised like angels) - i could describe the other aquariums but it seems out of place. I think the gist is i should dry mix KNO3 and KH2PO4 CSM and one of the iron (
GLUCONATE or CHELATE - i forget which one - i know one is good in both high and low ph and hte other requires low ph but i don't know why the hi ph version isn't good for low ph) and then probably use a liquid for other micro occasionally and see what happens ?

 

[JPog]

micro mix premixed or do you mix your own? My tap is not super soft (gh 7/tds 120-130); but i will be mixing it with ro water as the fishes i'm keeping require softer water. The 550 (which is co2 injected) I will mix 2 part tap with 1 part ro (using gh booster would defeat the use of ro to soften the water) - this aquarium will have loaches and a few cichild (some wild caught but not super delicate and some tank raised like angels) - i could describe the other aquariums but it seems out of place. I think the gist is i should dry mix KNO3 and KH2PO4 CSM and one of the iron (
GLUCONATE or CHELATE - i forget which one - i know one is good in both high and low ph and hte other requires low ph but i don't know why the hi ph version isn't good for low ph) and then probably use a liquid for other micro occasionally and see what happens ?

No, I don't mix my own, might be fun one day to see the effects of different changes, i know many of the heavy stem guys do that. I'm currently use this mix which contains both EDTA + DTPA chelating agents just to cover my bases since my tap is ph 7.5 and co2 tank around 6.3. Don't know if it's completely necessary but might as well.

GLA (EDTA+DTPA) Micromix Aquarium Fertilizer - 1lb Jar

Shop GLA (EDTA+DTPA) Micromix Aquarium Fertilizer (1lb Jar) for your planted aquarium aquascape. Brand: Green Leaf Aquariums (GLA). Orders ship fast worldwide and get free shipping on orders $125.

greenleafaquariums.com

So, I'm just using three things dry: KNO3, KH2PO4 and the micromix.

 

[Jellopuddinpop]

I think you can fix a lot of your confusion by visiting Rotalabutterfly.com and playing around with the settings. I’ll do the Nitrate for you to get you started, then one of the Micro’s to show you the difference. Let’s use your 550G as an example (I really want to see this tank, btw. Sounds exciting!)

• Head over to rotalabutterfly.com, and select the first option on the top row “Nutrient Calculator”
• Select your language, and enter your tank size (550G)
• Select the DIY checkbox
• In the next drop-down box, select KNO3
• Select the “Dry Dosing” checkbox
• In the “I am calculating for”, select “Dose to Reach a Target”
• From @GreggZ ‘s sheet, you can see that he’s dosing 18ppm / week. Enter that as your target, and click “Calculate”
• With 550 gallons, I got a result of 61.1g of KNO3 to reach a target of 18ppm Nitrate. Note, this also adds 11.35ppm Potassium
• Get a cup of tank water, and add this amount of KNO3 to the cup
• Rinse and repeat for KH2PO4 (Phosphate). Note, this also adds potassium. Make note of the amount.
• Add the K from the KNO3 and KH2PO4 together, and subtract this from your target K dose.
• Add the new target K dose into your calculator, and add that amount to the cup.
• Mix well, and pour into the tank after a water change.

For the micros, you’re going to make a solution.

• Change your “I am dosing with” to the first one on the Micro list, H3BO3 (Boron)
• Change the checkbox from “Dry Dosing” to “A Solution”
• Add your container size. The one you linked above was 1000mL
• Add your dose size. We’re going to go with 50mL because you have a huge ass tank
• Checking Gregg’s chart, he doses 0.015ppm B per day. Let’s add that to the calculator and click calculate.
• The calculator spit out 3.57g of H3BO3. ****** Add this amount of H3BO3 to your dosing bottle.
• Repeat this for each dry compound on the list. Add them all into the dosing bottle.
• ****** I would go through and write down the amount of each chemical before actually measuring anything. You might get a warning that you’re approaching solubility of a certain compound. This means you need to increase the dose size, which means you need to recalculate for each component.
• Once all the chemicals are added to the dosing bottle, add 1000mL of distilled water and shake well.
• Add the dose size to your tank every day.

 

[anewbie]

No, I don't mix my own, might be fun one day to see the effects of different changes, i know many of the heavy stem guys do that. I'm currently use this mix which contains both EDTA + DTPA chelating agents just to cover my bases since my tap is ph 7.5 and co2 tank around 6.3. Don't know if it's completely necessary but might as well.

GLA (EDTA+DTPA) Micromix Aquarium Fertilizer - 1lb Jar

Shop GLA (EDTA+DTPA) Micromix Aquarium Fertilizer (1lb Jar) for your planted aquarium aquascape. Brand: Green Leaf Aquariums (GLA). Orders ship fast worldwide and get free shipping on orders $125.

greenleafaquariums.com

So, I'm just using three things dry: KNO3, KH2PO4 and the micromix.

Well nilogc sell both irons for $10 each and i have to order some other items there i'm just not sure which one. Of course the link you provided has both combined at $16 ($4 less expensive ) but i'd like a better understanding of why the 'high ph' iron isn't sufficient even if the aquarium has low ph. Maybe someone will comment on that aspect.

 

[MrMuggles]

i'd like a better understanding of why the 'high ph' iron isn't sufficient even if the aquarium has low ph

I think it comes down to the difference between sufficient and ideal. If you do have lower pH, you can benefit more from having the EDTA form which is more "available" in that range than DTPA.

 

[Jellopuddinpop]

Well nilogc sell both irons for $10 each and i have to order some other items there i'm just not sure which one. Of course the link you provided has both combined at $16 ($4 less expensive ) but i'd like a better understanding of why the 'high ph' iron isn't sufficient even if the aquarium has low ph. Maybe someone will comment on that aspect.

Think of the Chelator like something that helps the iron stay in solution in the water.

Let's imagine a hypothetical scenario where olive oil was a plant nutrient. Now, oil doesn't normally mix with water, but if you add dish soap, it will (this is a thought experiment. Please don't add oil or soap to your tank).

In our hypothetical world, Dawn holds onto the oil the strongest, and will hold onto it in a ph up to around 8. Palmolive holds onto it a lot less, and releases it at a ph of around 7. However, it's much, much easier for the plants to use the oil that's attached to Palmolive, because the bond isn't as strong.

If your ph is like 7.5, you just can't really use Palmolive. As soon as you add the oil to the tank, it separates from the water and the plants get none. On the other hand, if your ph is 6.2, you shouldn't use Dawn. It's much harder for the plants to absorb the oil from the stronger bond.

Does this make sense?

 

[anewbie]

Think of the Chelator like something that helps the iron stay in solution in the water.

Let's imagine a hypothetical scenario where olive oil was a plant nutrient. Now, oil doesn't normally mix with water, but if you add dish soap, it will (this is a thought experiment. Please don't add oil or soap to your tank).

In our hypothetical world, Dawn holds onto the oil the strongest, and will hold onto it in a ph up to around 8. Palmolive holds onto it a lot less, and releases it at a ph of around 7. However, it's much, mush easier for the plants to use the oil that's attached to Palmolive, because the bond isn't as strong.

If your ph is like 7.5, you just can't really use Palmolive. As soon as you add the oil to the tank, it separates from the water and the plants get none. On the other hand, if your ph is 6.2, you shouldn't use Dawn. It's much harder for the plants to absorb the oil from the stronger bond.

Does this make sense?

People usually use PH as the deciding factor but is it actually ph or is it kh or some other factor. You can artifically change ph without actually changing the fundamental chemistry of the water (i.e, injection of co2). I believe nearly all my tanks will have ph below 7 (I would imagine the range will be between 5 (for the blackwater tank) and 6.8); the one exception will be the aquarium with guppies.

 

[Jellopuddinpop]

People usually use PH as the deciding factor but is it actually ph or is it kh or some other factor. You can artifically change ph without actually changing the fundamental chemistry of the water (i.e, injection of co2). I believe nearly all my tanks will have ph below 7 (I would imagine the range will be between 5 (for the blackwater tank) and 6.8); the one exception will be the aquarium with guppies.

It's the pH itself (acidic vs alkaline) that makes the difference.

 

[MrMuggles]

You can artifically change ph without actually changing the fundamental chemistry of the water

Is there anything besides CO2 that works this way? I thought it was only CO2 that can technically "change" ph without changing alkalinity.

 

[Jellopuddinpop]

Is there anything besides CO2 that works this way? I thought it was only CO2 that can technically "change" ph without changing alkalinity.

There's some anecdotal evidence of people using HCl to reduce Kh (and in turn, pH), but nothing too official.

pH is also reduced through Tannins, which I don't believe alter the Kh of the water.