Question of the Day How important are micros?

[Art]

There's been more talk about the importance of micros. It's been an area that I know some aquarists are focused on and experimenting with.

Others say, micros play a small (micro) role in the importance to the health of plants.

In your opinion and experience, what's the importance of micro dosing and how do you do it?

 

[*Ci*]

I would like to read more about this subject, so I am bumping this thread.

I am dosing CSM+B with some additional FE glucanate, however it’s been said that this powder is not very accurately measured for our purposes, being more of a bulk agricultural product. For non demanding plants or even higher tech stems, how important is it to have accurate dosing of every micro nutrient?
I am tempted by the various “roll your own micros” threads, to give it a try, but it is certainly a large up front expense (especially here in Canada, for the various ingredients), and I wonder how visible the benefits would be.

 

[Art]

Hi @*Ci*, thank you for bumping this thread up. I was surprised no one really took hold of my initial post back in November.

First, like with us humans, I think we are only scratching the surface of our understanding of the role micros play in our systems. IME, they are critical to have and your plants will NOT do well without them. However, the difficult part is that you only need to have a very small amount present in the water or in the substrate. Too much and things can/may go awry but that's a contentious topic for another thread (toxicity wars!).

Second, @GreggZ and @Burr740 are our resident micro experts. I don't know about shipping to Canada but @Burr740 does offer a complete set of micros for a very reasonable price.

Lastly, I don't believe hyper-accurate dosing of any element is needed. We work with ranges in our hobby and don't need lab-grade accuracy. That said, please check out Greggz's Custom Micro Mix Thread for all the details and to ask questions about this.

And, btw, I did see an improvement in my tank when I moved away from CSM+B.

 

[GreggZ]

However, the difficult part is that you only need to have a very small amount present in the water or in the substrate. Too much and things can/may go awry but that's a contentious topic for another thread (toxicity wars!).

Yes the good old microtox wars! That was quite a time in the hobby, and there was some validity to it. At one time EI was recommending 5 ppm Fe from CSM+B. That level could and did cause issues in some tanks.

To the larger issue with products like CSM+B is that they were never intended for use on the small scale that we use in an aquarium. They are used for crops after being mixed with hundreds/thousands gallons of water. So you to have to wonder what are the odds that a 1/16 tsp has the same ratio as the vat it was mixed in? Not very good in my opinion.

Lastly, I don't believe hyper-accurate dosing of any element is needed. We work with ranges in our hobby and don't need lab-grade accuracy.

Agreed. There are two issues. Following old guidelines and dosing massive amounts of micros can be toxic. Most common today is more like 0.40 to 0.60 Fe from micros weekly. And some people are even less.

The other issue is that the ratio in the that small dose could be wildly off. Let's take a micro like Boron. It works well in the narrowest range of any of the micros. That is both too much and too little can cause issue. So let's say you measure a fraction of a tsp and it's loaded with 5 times as much Boron. That can wreak some havoc on certain plants. I've done testing on this and have seen it first hand.

If one is going to use something like CSM+B, the best way is to mix a large solution which creates dilution. Or even creating one large container then add that solution to another large container which creates serial dilution. This will greatly increase the odds that the micro solution has relatively good ratios.

 

[klibs]

As a veteran in the aforementioned "microtox wars" I used to dose "EI recommended" levels of micros and saw major issues with plants stunting and failing to grow. This was many years ago, and now I dose very little micros (CSM+B)

I don't think accurate dosing is important (for anything prettymuch). I kind of just wing it when I dose my tank and don't stick to any schedule. Just measure some dry ferts and throw it directly in my sump every couple days.

Micros is one of those things where too much has caused issues for me personally. As long as there are trace amounts of it in the water column you should be fine I think

 

[GreggZ]

As a veteran in the aforementioned "microtox wars"

Wow what a crazy time that was on the forums. Some are still scarred!!

 

[*Ci*]

I’m getting more and more convinced to switch from Csm+b to custom mixing, but until I can build up my aquarium budget a bit, I will use Gregg’s dilution idea.

If one is going to use something like CSM+B, the best way is to mix a large solution which creates dilution. Or even creating one large container then add that solution to another large container which creates serial dilution. This will greatly increase the odds that the micro solution has relatively good ratios.

Just need to figure out the math!

 

[BigWave]

I have tried all sorts of methods of getting micros into my tanks. For me with very soft water dosing them lean seems to work better in my situations. As of late have been mixing my own custom micros without success so its back to the ol CSM+B and Millers MicroPlex. Been debating on ordering Joes micros just to see If what I was doing was wrong or...

 

[GreggZ]

I’m getting more and more convinced to switch from Csm+b to custom mixing, but until I can build up my aquarium budget a bit, I will use Gregg’s dilution idea.

Just need to figure out the math!

Let me know if you need help. Like most things in life once you figure it out it wasn't nearly as complicated as you thought.

 

[plantnoobdude]

And some people are even less

0.016fe EDTA weekly here

But while if you have micros awfully wromg it certainly can influence your plants, most of the time micros are not the issue. Maintenance, co2, light, I'd look at first.

 

[Unexpected]

Hmm, now I'm worried. I just dry dose my CSMB. Have I now thrown off the ratios in the container and now need to get a new batch for mixing in RO?

 

[yalon140]

i used CSMB and after like a year i started adding it B Zn Mn with Fe DTPA and my results were pretty good, i copied burr recipe in a way
i remember my rotala type4 was always getting pinkish and then stunting, now its completely gone, no sign of this, almost sure it was the Fe but who knows.

 

[Burr740]

i used CSMB and after like a year i started adding it B Zn Mn with Fe DTPA and my results were pretty good, i copied burr recipe in a way
i remember my rotala type4 was always getting pinkish and then stunting, now its completely gone, no sign of this, almost sure it was the Fe but who knows.

Csmb is definitely low on Zn, a little extra B will help too. Adding the dtpa definitely helped

Mn is alright where it is even with more dtpa. The crop ratio of 3-3.5:1 that gets cited all the time doesnt really apply to our aquariums ime. I spent a couple years spiking it with Mn along with dtpa, keeping a ratio around that. Because well, thats what all the research suggests. But things immediately went better when I stopped adding more Mn. I think it was inhibiting Fe efficiency but thats mostly speculation.

 

[yalon140]

Csmb is definitely low on Zn, a little extra B will help too. Adding the dtpa definitely helped

Mn is alright where it is even with more dtpa. The crop ratio of 3-3.5:1 that gets cited all the time doesnt really apply to our aquariums ime. I spent a couple years spiking it with Mn along with dtpa, keeping a ratio around that. Because well, thats what all the research suggests. But things immediately went better when I stopped adding more Mn. I think it was inhibiting Fe efficiency but thats mostly speculation.

OK then next time i wont add any Mn and see how goes.

Becuase of you my life been easier so thank you for all the information you share, micro mix + front loading is a big win for me.