Facebook and planted tank forums.

[Yugang]

I think more and more people are starting to value the balance that frequenting Facebook AND forums brings.

Fortunately forums built up an impressive knowledge base, and user base before Facebook became really popular. Forums are a great tool for learning, or for more experienced hobbyists sharing experience and experiments, collectively trying to make some progress.

I started using FB perhaps a year ago, and I do like a lot of what I see there on some good planted tank groups. But what gets posted today, will be lost a month from now. There are no threads, no structure, no history, no search function. Very little good education (cycling, ferts, CO2, to mention a few), and hardly any scientific or technical progress by members.

I like FB promotion for our hobby. The concern I have would be that I see some of the best in our hobby posting frequently on FB but hardly ever on fora anymore. FB may help for brand or ego boosting, but at the risk that we start to miss something in education or scientific progress in the hobby. These experts made their name in the hobby amongst others on fora, and hopefully remain committed to energise and develop fora for future generations. FB is not a credible substitute for fora imho.

I posted a couple of times on FB, regret to say that I consider it mostly a waste of my time and now think twice before a join a conversation.

My two cents.

 

[Count Krunk]

FB

 

[Unexpected]

Agree, FB is pretty bad. Though buying plants is made easier .

 

[Yugang]

FB is pretty bad.

I follow a couple of groups, and recommend "CO2 Supplemented Planted Tanks". I take inspiration from that group, lot's of good stuff and beautiful tanks.

I am not opposing FB, but believe that we are losing a lot if we forget how fora had and have an important contribution. I am pleading to the big names in the hobby to continue and contribute to the hobby, and believe that FB activity alone does not do justice to their reputation, nor does it reflect that we have a common responsibility for the foundations of this hobby.

This weekend I made a few contributions on FB, regarding some misunderstandings of the physics of reactors. In a week it will all be gone, forgotten, and any newbie can make confident statements again and answer questions on FB. Not only will we stop making progress, we will actually go back with our knowledge, know-how, and education. We can't let that happen.

 

[Marcel G]

While I agree with your position in principle, @Yugang, and agree that unlike Facebook, forums have much greater and more lasting educational potential, I fear you are going to clash with this view among most modern aquarists because the current generation prefers instant information (ideally in real time) rather than some sort of knowledge base. Besides, forums are full of posts of varying quality, and distinguishing the good from the bad (true from false) requires certain logical skills (or wisdom) that are not acquired at birth, but through appropriate long-term learning. This all goes against again the desire of most aquarists today to "get instant answers". So if a young aquarist has to choose between Facebook and an internet forum, I think his choice will be clear. Forums are basically a dead thing (fossils), where only the older generation + aquarists who managed to build some reputation in the past (= gurus) + a few individuals who are looking for that knowledge base spend their time.

After I returned to aquaristics after about seven years, I found that our biggest local aquarium forum was dying and only bullshit like "I have algae in my aquarium; what should I do?" was being discussed. All the users who were active there years ago, and who discussed a topic lively every day, are gone (every single one!). All that's left are a few obtuse moderators who are trying to prove they're still useful to anyone there. The once great American forums like plantedtank.net or aquaticplantcentral.com are now in ruins. The only forum that was still alive until recently was ukaps.org, but there has been a recent dispute over finances, so they are now making some major changes in ownership, management and administration that I think will result in further degradation of its status. I think the harbinger of the end of any community is when they start excluding people with differing views from their midst. And that is happening virtually everywhere. The result is that there ends up being a small group of moderators who lock themselves into a small opinion bubble and don't even notice that a lot of excellent debaters have left. Even this forum is basically only run by Art (who is constantly pitching new topics in the hope that some fruitful discussion will break out around it) + a few renegades from other forums. The rest just hangs around and doesn't really express themselves (doesn't get involved).

This is my highly optimistic view of the current situation on the aquarium forum market.

 

[SingAlongWithTsing]

Forums > Discord > Facebook imo.

Forums and Discord both have categories so it's easier to search stuff up.
Forums are better than Discord because of a better search engine and stuff can be cached by google.

Think most younger folk use Discord because they can just hop over to their gaming group servers if they're not looking up aquascaping stuff lol.

 

[Art]

Thanks, everyone, for this highly provocative and needed discussion. Healthy debate and critical thinking is always welcomed.

forums have much greater and more lasting educational potential

I wholeheartedly agree with this, with emphasis on long-lasting. This is why I chose to start ScapeCrunch. There needs to be a respected, honest and long-term repository for information about our beloved hobby.

I have faith that the information contained within this site will benefit someone at some point in time. It is to benefit us today and also those that come after us. Social media cannot say this. It is designed for immediate consumption that's all.

I fear you are going to clash with this view among most modern aquarists because the current generation prefers instant information

In my mind, Facebook and other social media is more like a discussion with someone that may or may not have more knowledge and experience than you. It is easy to consume and designed to be used like all social media now-a-days - bite-size information, easy and quick access.

This isn't a bad thing. One of my biggest gripes with forums was always that it doesn't have a great way to just chat with someone. This type of immediate interaction is very valuable and needed as part of a complete educational platform.

We know this today as water cooler talk. You go to class and get taught knowledge that comes from books and you can refer to it. Then you want to discuss that knowledge easily with people around the water cooler. This presents long and short knowledge that completes a person's experience.

That said, yes, I too am old enough to see the downsides of social media, especially the shortening attention span of many. Honestly, including my own attention span. I too find myself doom scrolling on social media and I also enjoy the easy eye candy of Facebook posts.

My point, however, is that they can co-exists and, perhaps, should.

I think the harbinger of the end of any community is when they start excluding people with differing views from their midst.

100%. This kills community. Different points of view need to be encouraged and everyone in the community should lean into this belief.

Discussing different points of view, respectfully and authentically, is one of the most important values that a forum can bring. I aspire to this here at ScapeCrunch.

Even this forum is basically only run by Art (who is constantly pitching new topics in the hope that some fruitful discussion will break out around it) + a few renegades from other forums. The rest just hangs around and doesn't really express themselves (doesn't get involved).

I don't know if you know but I started Aquatic Plant Central many years ago. I sold it to a company that runs forums for profit. Planted Tank is also owned by that same company. I regret that decision and is why I started ScapeCrunch a couple of years ago.

When a hobby forum is run exclusively for profit, it is doomed. A hobby is not a for-profit venture but one of passion, love and a shared feeling of community. These are all things I'm focused on bring to our little forum along with a dose of transparency, authenticity and hope.

Over the years, I've learned that any venture needs to have at least one person that is dedicated and has the determination to continue to build and run the venture in spite of setbacks or challenges. At this point in time, that person is me. I'm proud of it and perfectly OK thinking of questions and discussion topics that are intended to spur conversation and entertainment. Every forum needs this.

I would respectfully disagree with your use of the word "renegade" as that implies leaving another forum by deserting or betraying it. That is simply not the case. The wonderful people that are present at ScapeCrunch are those that share a vision for what a planted aquarium forum can be and are willing to join with likeminded people to bring it to life. Whether that is 10 people or 100,000 people, it doesn't matter.

As I've said elsewhere, it's not the size of a forum that counts. It's the culture and the values/beliefs of the core group of dedicated people. This is exactly why the Aquatic Gardeners Association is still around. And, I'm so glad and grateful about that.

As for the proverbial lurkers, that is just human dynamics. Studies have shown that usually 5-10% of a forum's members are active and carry the discussion. The remainder are just fine lurking and following the discussions privately. This is perfectly fine. I'm a lurker on Facebook 100% of the time.

The 80/20 rule is in action except in this case it's more like 90/10 rule. Honestly, though. Isn't this what's nice about a community? Engage if you want to, just watch and learn if you don't.

To conclude on a positive note, I see ScapeCrunch thriving more every day. Our traffic numbers are growing steadily month over month. I get to interact with many of you smart and giving people and I get to have "deep thoughts" about the hobby I love. I'm good with that.

ScapeCrunch will remain a hobbyist-run home for the planted aquarium hobby for the long-run. It's written into my estate plan. This will ensure its mission to serve the planted aquarium community over a long period of time.

 

[Marcel G]

Thank you @Art for your reaction! Yes, I knew you started APC and then later sold it, and in fact that was one of the reasons why I have a bit mixed feelings about this forum => I'm afraid it's just another commercial project (i.e. start a new forum, then sell it). And as far as I know, I'm not the only one who shares this concern here.

I like the analogy of a classroom lesson followed by a discussion at the water cooler. If we take the forum as such a classroom lesson and the chat on Facebook (or similar platform) as a freer discussion, then I have no problem acknowledging their complementary roles. But the question is to what extent other (mainstream) users see it that way.

As for the term "renegade", I was really referring mainly to users who have left or been banned from other forums. In my opinion, such users usually have great potential to stir up discussions, but they also tend to be confrontational (I am one of them myself). As far as I know, @Yugang has also been banned from UKAPS.org, despite his extremely useful thread on CO2 diffusers. Similarly, @Tim Harrison was excommunicated from UKAPS.org (where he had previously been a Moderator and maybe even an Admin, before he pointed out some financial irregularities there and was banned), although he was then taken up again (but only as a regular member). The new forum is a bit of a magnet for such renegades from my point of view, as they basically have nowhere else to go. That's not to say that the majority of such people are there, of course. But others probably come here more as a trip (e.g. @sudiorca, @Zeus., @Happi, etc.) because they have built their home (and fame) on another forum.

I would love to believe that this forum can become a home for aquarists of all "beliefs" and that no one will be kicked out for their opinion, but I see the opposite all around. So I apologize, but experience has taught me to be rather suspicious.

 

[Art]

Thank you @Art for your reaction! Yes, I knew you started APC and then later sold it, and in fact that was one of the reasons why I have a bit mixed feelings about this forum => I'm afraid it's just another commercial project (i.e. start a new forum, then sell it). And as far as I know, I'm not the only one who shares this concern here.

I would love to believe that this forum can become a home for aquarists of all "beliefs" and that no one will be kicked out for their opinion, but I see the opposite all around. So I apologize, but experience has taught me to be rather suspicious.

Hmm. @Marcel G, thank you for making me see this point of view. I completely understand and agree that some or many of you may feel that ScapeCrunch is just another commercial venture that will be sold in the end. Especially as I did it in the past. I'm sorry I didn't really see this before.

Trust but verify is a very good practice so I think you are spot on.

As I've mentioned previously, we don't take paid sponsorships. I also try to be transparent about our finances. However, your comments have given me the push I needed on a decision I've been thinking about for a while.

I am going to contribute ScapeCrunch to a US charitable entity known as a 501(c)(3) public charity. This will be beneficial for a number of reasons but most notably the fact that it will be owned by a charity in perpetuity and any dues/donations will be tax deductible if you're a US person. I trust this will also allay any concerns that I will sell out to a for profit entity in the future.

Thanks again as I think this will be good for the future of ScapeCrunch and preserving the online presence of the hobby.

 

[Count Krunk]

If you're serious about a hobby you go to a forum.

Everyone knows that.
Most users on Facebook are not serious about their hobbies. Or at least not serious in a way that helps the hobby.

It's more like, entertainment. They're on fb they share a few memes or pics and make fun of dumb questions with 80% of the group.

You need help for your car? Forum. You have a cool or liked car? There's a forum for it.

I found a plumbing forum once for a question haha.

Facebook is people with nice tanks contributing nothing but pictures of their nice tanks for flex value. Then people who know nothing screaming into the void.

 

[Jeff Miotke]

I tried FB/Instagram for two years. My experience was ok at first but soon I found myself turned off by the platform. I started digging in which led me to doing some research on these platforms and I didn't like what I saw. After a few TED talks and taking a close look at my own usage of the platform I decided to essentially abandon my 50k follower account. I want to help people not hurt them. I moved to YouTube as I still feel it has value for a learning and sharing platform. Though I am not blind to its shortcomings as well.

And here I am back in the forum posting this.

 

[Count Krunk]

youtube is great for learning. You of course, can't treat it as gospel but it's great for many a thing.

 

[Koan]

Facebook is people.. contributing nothing.. for flex value. Then people who know nothing screaming into the void

 

[Phish Tank]

Lurker, that's me. One of the things I find just stunningly awesome about Scapecrunch is the quality of information I can learn from is really high. Learning can be a struggle in larger communities/forums because there is so much inaccurate information and so few experts, and beginners don't know which information they should trust.

 

[Pepere]

I deleted Facebook years ago and absolutely refuse to re engage with most social media. Youtube is my one exception because I find it too useful to give up. I am not however all that happy with their privacy practices or algorithms either…

But Facebook is absolutely evil and devoid of morals as a company, and I dont think much better about instagram, tik tok or any of the rest of them…

 

[Yugang]

Thanks, everyone, for this highly provocative and needed discussion. Healthy debate and critical thinking is always welcomed.

I am very impressed with your vision and how you approach challenging discussions @Art . Thank you, it is a great contribution, and legacy, to the hobby.

As far as I know, @Yugang has also been banned from UKAPS.org, despite his extremely useful thread on CO2 diffusers.

Actually I first 'self banned', and informed the staff why I had decided to stop contributing. The most important factor was stifling creativity and innovation, as well as how the forum was managed at that time. They did not like my feedback, while I did what I said and went virtually silent for 3 months. I got banned when I came out of hibernation and opposed a staff member posting climate change conspiracy theory while moderating his own thread and giving warnings to participants to that heated discussion (ie initiating a loaded and controversial debate, and then using the powers as a moderator). UKAPS may be a better place after its crisis, and I hope they will go stronger again and contribute to the hobby. I have approached UKAPS three times, the old admin still gatekeeper, to suggest that I could still help on the forum and give support on CO2, but no reply so far.

As for the proverbial lurkers, that is just human dynamics. Studies have shown that usually 5-10% of a forum's members are active and carry the discussion. The remainder are just fine lurking and following the discussions privately. This is perfectly fine. I'm a lurker on Facebook 100% of the time.

The 80/20 rule is in action except in this case it's more like 90/10 rule. Honestly, though. Isn't this what's nice about a community? Engage if you want to, just watch and learn if you don't.

I've done a statistical analysis on the membership on one of the big forums. What I found is that the vast majority of active participants has less than 3 years between first and last post on the forum. Only a really small core group of staff and loyal members are medium/long term contributors. Example in case, I left UKAPS less than two years ago and the majority of postings today on the forum I by members I do not know from my active period on the forum. This suggests to me that total accumulated membership of a forum (many of whom are inactive and/or not very loyal), is less important than the core group of loyalists contributing long term value and continuity.

There needs to be a respected, honest and long-term repository for information about our beloved hobby.

Agree, and may I expand the scope to include ScapeCrunch, Facebook, Youtube, AGA and all the other "islands" that ultimately support our hobby? In an ideal world, would it be possible to find a common ground and more cooperation between like minded leaders in the hobby?

Perhaps we should think in terms of a partnership between a good Facebook group, and a good planted tank forum? The FB group has its strength and role in the partnership, so does the forum. The FB group may actually have the most traffic, and the largest user group. The forum is mostly for education, building and maintaining a knowledgeable base captured in its threads, tank journals and for the few nerds who like to experiment with new methods. And why not consider to coordinate, and perhaps at some point team up, with AGA and similar?

 

[Art]

Agree, and may I expand the scope to include ScapeCrunch, Facebook, Youtube, AGA and all the other "islands" that ultimately support our hobby? In an ideal world, would it be possible to find a common ground and more cooperation between like minded leaders in the hobby?

Perhaps we should think in terms of a partnership between a good Facebook group, and a good planted tank forum? The FB group has its strength and role in the partnership, so does the forum. The FB group may actually have the most traffic, and the largest user group. The forum is mostly for education, building and maintaining a knowledgeable base captured in its threads, tank journals and for the few nerds who like to experiment with new methods. And why not consider to coordinate, and perhaps at some point team up, with AGA and similar?

Great suggestions and thoughts. My initial reaction is - Yes! I'd love that! However, there are some challenges that need to be overcome.

• Common ground and cooperation among "leaders" in the hobby - I would say that it would be great to have more common ground and cooperation among "highly active and experienced" people in the hobby. Unfortunately, I have found that sometimes egos, differing objectives and/or time get in the way so this has not often occurred.
• Partnership between a Facebook group and a planted aquarium forum - I think this would be a great thing and solve two very big problems for each. The risk is that it just to easy to post on Facebook and not on the forum so the forum may not get the traffic it needs and information again may get lost in the fire hose that is Facebook.
• Teaming up with the AGA - again, I would love that. In fact, the AGA is very welcoming about sharing information when asked. However, they are cautious about partnering with any one forum as it may antagonize the other forums out there. In other words, it's very focused on its independence that has allowed it to endure for so long. I don't find fault with this at all.

Some thoughts for the future.

• Creating a ScapeCrunch Facebook group? - this would provide the solutions we've discussed by having a forum and social media. However, why create a new group when there are existing ones that already have great traction. No need to compete in that sense.
• Being owned by a public charity may make it easier for others to join the mission? - when ScapeCrunch is owned by a public charity, perhaps other highly active and experienced people will feel more comfortable joining our mission and help continue to grow. People are more apt to join a cause when they know it isn't owned by and for the benefit of one individual or for-profit company. Maybe even the AGA would be more willing to partner then?

Just some of my thoughts. Completely open to suggestions. Love the discussion!

 

[Marcel G]

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[le.nella]

Forums > Discord > Facebook imo.

Forums and Discord both have categories so it's easier to search stuff up.
Forums are better than Discord because of a better search engine and stuff can be cached by google.

Think most younger folk use Discord because they can just hop over to their gaming group servers if they're not looking up aquascaping stuff lol.

Any servers to join?