Help Experiencing deficiencies with EI dosing

[spencernw]

Hello. I noticed deficiencies in my tank and would like help on determining the issue.

I have a 125 gallon tank with a finnex stringray, fluval fx4 and fluval 407. It has a layer of amazonia on the bottom, and a top layer of stratum and seachem Flourite.

C02 is injected through the 407 via a inline diffuser. PH is checked through a milwakie ph controller. degassed is about 7.8/8. Lights come on and ph is 6.6/6.5. I usually suspect co2 as the culprit but If I add anymore, the fish get stressed. I have flow in a circular pattern where the fx4 agitates the surface and pushes top water to the right. The righthand side has a skimmer and the 407 which injects the co2 near the bottom. The 407s nozzle is pointed to the left.

Lights are on for 12 hours 11-11. (now 6 hours with a two bulb t5 fixture)

I do about a 70% water change once a week.

My GH and KH before I augmented dosing was GH5 and KH5. This appeared to be all CA (35.5 ppm CA). I've since added 9ppm of MG per week to get a 1:4 ratio because I noticed chlorosis in the leaves. Chlorosis has since resolved.

I've increased dosing to EI levels to try and get these leaves to straighten out. EI levels have been dosed for a few weeks and new growth is still having issues.

Current Dosing 3x per week after water change:

KNO3 - 7.5ppm
KH2P04 = 1.3ppm
K2S04 = 2.5ppm (total is about 8ppm)
Mg = 9ppm
Micros from CSM+B = .2 iron edta
dtpa iron 11% @ .2
flourish iron (Ferrous Gluconate) @ .02

Deficiency Symptoms:

Ludwigia (exhibits twisted leaves as it gets closer to the light. Will stunt completely. Stems start to detach)
Anubias (Didnt notice any since I've added mg but once I raised to EI levels, it looks like new leaves have the cutout or pieces missing sometimes)
staurogyne repens (leaves are nonexistent. When they do form, they look like they've been clipped and have pieces missing)
Hygrophilia (Pieces missing)
mosses (just dont grow)
Java fern (No real deficiencies)
Crypts (No real deficiencies. Some seem to have wavy leaves)

I do have some form of siamese algae eater and two ottos but I dont believe they are eating things as the starogyne on the left side has fully formed new leaves where as the right side exhibits the deformity.

I would think the staryogyne would have enough nutrients through the roots with the amazonia/stratum/flourite?

This looks like 'toxicity' to me but I believe some have proved that is not a thing.

Entire Imgur album showing the deficiencies:

I've since changed the photo period to 8 hours for about a week and things continued. I now have a two bulb t5 fixture with a daylight and red bulb and am still having issues at 6 hours of light. Deficiencies have increased in the ludwigia. S. repens seem to be sprouting some tiny leaves but they are deformed.

Any help is appreciated!

 

[Freshflora]

I don’t think you’re having deficiency issues at those dosing levels. Some things stand out to me though — how long has your tank been set up? Could your substrate possibly be dirty and in need of a deep clean? Weird things can pop up when the substrate is dirty.

Also, since your PH is over 7 for a considerable part of the day, I would be using as little EDTA as possible, ideally none at all. You could be having some weird stuff happening to your plants due to the EDTA. Basically above a PH of 6.5 EDTA starts to not work so well and it will detach from the iron and other micronutrients and is free to bind to other nutrients like phosphate. Some other options are to 1) try dosing CSMB at a lower level mainly just for the other micronutrients besides iron, like 0.1 or 0.05, 2) a commercial micronutrients source that uses a different chelate (DTPA) or unchelated micros like flourish comprehensive or 3) make your own micronutrients - see here for instructions on how to do so:
Post in thread 'The Custom Micro Mix Thread'
The Custom Micro Mix Thread

 

[spencernw]

I don’t think you’re having deficiency issues at those dosing levels. Some things stand out to me though — how long has your tank been set up? Could your substrate possibly be dirty and in need of a deep clean? Weird things can pop up when the substrate is dirty.

Also, since your PH is over 7 for a considerable part of the day, I would be using as little EDTA as possible, ideally none at all. You could be having some weird stuff happening to your plants due to the EDTA. Basically above a PH of 6.5 EDTA starts to not work so well and it will detach from the iron and other micronutrients and is free to bind to other nutrients like phosphate. Some other options are to 1) try dosing CSMB at a lower level mainly just for the other micronutrients besides iron, like 0.1 or 0.05, 2) a commercial micronutrients source that uses a different chelate (DTPA) or unchelated micros like flourish comprehensive or 3) make your own micronutrients - see here for instructions on how to do so:
Post in thread 'The Custom Micro Mix Thread'
The Custom Micro Mix Thread

Thank you for the help. This substrate has been in use for less than 6 months.

I will try dosing low levels of CSMB; calculated to .05 fe 1x a week and If that doesn't work, I can try to use unchelated micros like flourish comprehensive?

Also, im using DTPA iron separately w/ Ferrous Gluconate to combat the chelating issue. Are the other micronutrients in csmb using edta chelate besides the iron and are they affected by the chelate ph issue too? If so, do you have any recommendations for an alternative micro mix with dtpa as the only chelating agent for the other micros?

 

[Freshflora]

Thank you for the help. This substrate has been in use for less than 6 months.

I will try dosing low levels of CSMB; calculated to .05 fe 1x a week and If that doesn't work, I can try to use unchelated micros like flourish comprehensive?

Also, im using DTPA iron separately w/ Ferrous Gluconate to combat the chelating issue. Are the other micronutrients in csmb using edta chelate besides the iron and are they affected by the chelate ph issue too? If so, do you have any recommendations for an alternative micro mix with dtpa as the only chelating agent for the other micros?

Yeah unfortunately CSMB is pretty much entirely comprised of EDTA chelates. And yeah the other micros are affected by it too. GLA makes a micro mix that has some DTPA in it, but I don’t have any personal experience with it. Alternatively, you could use flourish comprehensive (Rotalabutterfly.com will help you figure out how much to dose), Tropica’s liquid micros, or you can hit up Joe Harvey on Facebook, owner of BurrAqua, who makes a great micro mix with only DTPA and Gluconate + unchelated micros if you don’t want to make your own.

 

[Art]

layer of amazonia on the bottom, and a top layer of stratum and seachem Flourite.

May I ask why you have this layered system?

degassed is about 7.8/8

I'm assuming you're using TAP water plus dechlorinator? Have you checked your TAP water parameters from the water utility report? Just trying to see if your starting water has anything you need to keep in mind.

I do about a 70% water change once a week.

You do a water change once per week but you dose 3x per week?

Here are some of my initial thoughts to support what @Freshflora already mentioned:

• I would recommend that you switch from CSM+B to @Burr740's micros, preferably, or another trusted commercial product for micros
• Make sure you are cleaning the substrate following @Dennis Wong's method to make sure detritus is kept to a minimum
• IMHO your light level was too low. With the additional lighting you added, I think that will help in the long run

Lastly, THANK YOU so much for posting your issue. This is exactly why ScapeCrunch exists. So we can help each other figure out how to get our tanks to thrive. Looking forward to helping you here.

Copying @plantbrain who is the father of EI to see if he has some thoughts for you. Also copying the plant whisperer @Dennis Wong that also may spot something.

 

[spencernw]

May I ask why you have this layered system?

My reasoning may not be efficacious but I decided to use a layered system because when I was researching all the substrates, none were perfect and I wanted to get the best attributes from all. Some substrates had a higher CEC capability, more nutrients, etc. Originally this tank was going to be no plants and just discus but when Stendker Discus shut down, I had to think of a different plan for the tank. Since I already had fish, I wanted to prevent the ammonia leach as much as possible and thought the cap may help. Also, the amount of pure Amazonia for a 125 was pricey. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I'm assuming you're using TAP water plus dechlorinator? Have you checked your TAP water parameters from the water utility report? Just trying to see if your starting water has anything you need to keep in mind.

My tds before dosing is 60-80 depending on the time of year it seems. Here is what's listed on the report. They don't have ca/mg levels or anything else listed besides contaminants. I was told I would need to do individual testing for more information. I do have an RODI system if it would be beneficial to attempt a half/half mix or completely switch.

You do a water change once per week but you dose 3x per week?

Dosing 1x a week seems more consistent to me but EI forums stated 3x a week so I just followed that. Should I change it to 1x?

Here are some of my initial thoughts to support what @Freshflora already mentioned:

• I would recommend that you switch from CSM+B to @Burr740's micros, preferably, or another trusted commercial product for micros
• Make sure you are cleaning the substrate following @Dennis Wong's method to make sure detritus is kept to a minimum
• IMHO your light level was too low. With the additional lighting you added, I think that will help in the long run

I ordered flourish comprehensive to start and messaged burr on Facebook to get a mix. I will also do the substrate cleaning!

Lastly, THANK YOU so much for posting your issue. This is exactly why ScapeCrunch exists. So we can help each other figure out how to get our tanks to thrive. Looking forward to helping you here.

Thank you! I definitely appreciate the help from everyone and the welcoming culture.

 

[Freshflora]

On the topic of your water - are you adding KH to your tap water? 60-70 tds is very low to also come with 5KH. If you are, I would recommend keeping your KH in the 0-2 range, unless you’re keeping livestock that need a higher KH/PH like livebearers or some African cichlids. Pretty much all plants highly prefer a lower KH.

Nothing is wrong with dosing more than once a week and only doing one water change. There are some people that like to do a larger dose after a 50% or larger water change or to simply dose all their macros (AKA “frontload” their macros) in an effort to keep their nutrient levels more stable during the week. However, it is definitely not necessary to see great results, rather it’s just one approach to dosing. Some notable people who like to do a larger dose after a large water change and/or frontload include @GreggZ and @Marian Sterian. However, some of the best growers still do not do this like @spawnerjp and @Dennis Wong.

That level of tweaking is more about fine-tuning your results rather than making or breaking your success.

 

[spencernw]

On the topic of your water - are you adding KH to your tap water? 60-70 tds is very low to also come with 5KH. If you are, I would recommend keeping your KH in the 0-2 range, unless you’re keeping livestock that need a higher KH/PH like livebearers or some African cichlids. Pretty much all plants highly prefer a lower KH.

I am not adding any. I redid the tests to be sure I wasn't mistaken. TDS is currently 80. KH on the api test kit is 5 drops again. I can mix with RO water to achieve this KH if you think it would yield better results

Nothing is wrong with dosing more than once a week and only doing one water change. There are some people that like to do a larger dose after a 50% or larger water change or to simply dose all their macros (AKA “frontload” their macros) in an effort to keep their nutrient levels more stable during the week. However, it is definitely not necessary to see great results, rather it’s just one approach to dosing. Some notable people who like to do a larger dose after a large water change and/or frontload include @GreggZ and @Marian Sterian. However, some of the best growers still do not do this like @spawnerjp and @Dennis Wong.

That level of tweaking is more about fine-tuning your results rather than making or breaking your success.

Thanks for the insight! I may frontload since it's easier for me.

 

[Freshflora]

I am not adding any. I redid the tests to be sure I wasn't mistaken. TDS is currently 80. KH on the api test kit is 5 drops again. I can mix with RO water to achieve this KH if you think it would yield better results


Thanks for the insight! I may frontload since it's easier for me.

Course, and just to be clear, that’s only for macros. Micros should still be dosed at least like 3 times a week. If you can realistically stick with it without it being annoying, then I’d say yeah lowering your KH to 0-2 wouldn’t be a bad call. But you should be able to grow most all plants fine at a KH of 5 except for Syngonanthus species, some eriocaulons, toninas, and some really picky lythracae (some really picky Rotalas and ammanias).

 

[BigWave]

What are you dosing exactly for traces? I know CSM+B but how much exactly? Bump them up considerably!!

 

[spencernw]

What are you dosing exactly for traces? I know CSM+B but how much exactly? Bump them up considerably!!

Currently dosing around these levels 3x a week from CSMB:

Element	ppm/degree
Fe	0.2
B	0.035
Mn	0.057
Mo	0.002
Zn	0.011
Cu	0.003

 

[spencernw]

I got some flourish comprehensive. I tried to contact burr through a few methods to get some of the micromix but I never received a response. I am dosing flourish comprehensive at 30ml 3x per week. I am also still dosing dtpa iron, not sure why. The deficiencies are still there unfortunately. Any advice? Should I try another micromix? These are the values:

N	0.0482
NO3	0.2123
P2O5	0.0069
P	0.003
PO4	0.009
K2O	0.255
K	0.2116
Ca	0.0965
Mg	0.0758
S	0.1911
B	0.0062
Cl	0.7925
Co	0.0003
Cu	0.0001
Fe	0.2205
Mn	0.0081
Mo	0.0006
Na	0.0896
Zn	0.0005

 

[BigWave]

Flourish is a good micro product. It gets expensive but does the job well. If your still getting issues, this is going to go against everything people say but try doing multiple back to back waterchanges throughout the week. Completely flush the tank. Since you have Amazoinia it has ample amounts of fertz. Try not dosing anything for maybe 3 weeks and observe.
Something very picular is going on. I very much doubt its CO2 or fertz from what youve posted. Could possibly be gH or kH related but who knows. Hope you are keeping a log of everything you do and see so as to go back later and be like ohhh I did this and this happened.

 

[Yugang]

Lights are on for 12 hours 11-11. (now 6 hours with a two bulb t5 fixture)

I now have a two bulb t5 fixture with a daylight and red bulb and am still having issues at 6 hours of light.

Just a slightly different perspective from dosing, as I am confused and hope we don't overlook the lighting. Have you been reducing the lighting period to just 6 hours? If so, could that be part of the problem?

 

[spencernw]

Since you have Amazoinia it has ample amounts of fertz. Try not dosing anything for maybe 3 weeks and observe.

I'll try this. From reading Dennis Wongs material, it looks like a nutrient toxicity but also has symptoms of a deficiency. I know some have proved that toxicity is not a thing but if I'm out of options it could be worth a try.

 

[spencernw]

Just a slightly different perspective from dosing, as I am confused and hope we don't overlook the lighting. Have you been reducing the lighting period to just 6 hours? If so, could that be part of the problem?

I originally posted this on another forum; I only got one reply and that was that my light was too low (finnex light) which is why my s repens didn't grow - it's just stems, no leaves at this point. They also said that my light was on for too long. So I tried the finnex light at 8 hours with the same result. I then switched to a t5 fixture and to prevent algae, I started at 6 hours instead of 8. I can switch it to 8 hours.

 

[Yugang]

I originally posted this on another forum; I only got one reply and that was that my light was too low (finnex light) which is why my s repens didn't grow - it's just stems, no leaves at this point. They also said that my light was on for too long. So I tried the finnex light at 8 hours with the same result. I then switched to a t5 fixture and to prevent algae, I started at 6 hours instead of 8. I can switch it to 8 hours.

I’ve struggled with my tank in the past, tried everything but overlooked my 6 hrs photoperiod. Bumped it up to 10 hrs, problem solved. I hope it works for you as well.

 

[spencernw]

I’ve struggled with my tank in the past, tried everything but overlooked my 6 hrs photoperiod. Bumped it up to 10 hrs, problem solved. I hope it works for you as well.

Thank you. I adjusted them to 10 hours. I'll see how that goes!

 

[spencernw]

It's also worth noting that I had a 15g with CO2 and no fish before this. I didn't dose anything. I just had dwarf hairgrass and baby tears. It had Amazonia and CO2 was just cranked to the max since there was no livestock. I know tanks are different but it's an interesting observation. I had no deficiencies and things grew like weeds. I cannot grow dwarf hairgrass in this tank tho.

 

[BigWave]

DHG gets 85 - 90% of its nutrients from the root zone. About the only thing it likes via water coloum is Fe. I do not think your lighting is the major problem. Plants should grow even with lower light. I wonder if its gH related. People dont talk much about it but Ca and Mg can impede the uptake of the other elements.