EI vs Lean dosing

[Clare]

Hello All,

I’m a newb to the planted tank world, (and you’ve been helping me with the algae issues I’ve been dealing with)

(Problems are continuing, with GSA, and hair algae mostly, but will keep plugging away)

I’m aiming for a set-up that needs less ferts, less maintenance (trimming crazy stems etc) and has less algae! (But then, aren’t we all??)

My tank is now mostly ferns, crypts, anubias, H pinnatifida, lotuses and Christmas moss. (Some stems were accidentally left in, and went bananas whilst recently away on holidays!)

I’ve got CO2 running, and am reducing the light intensity in the tank.

I have been pouring in ferts according to the EI dosing recommended by the manufacturer, but would like to pull back to the lean dosing method.

My question (finally):
- do any of you use a lean dosing method?
- any recommendation re how you go about this? (I plan to switch to dry ferts as am told more $ efficient, so happy for recommendations!)

Thanks for your help!

 

[Immortal1]

Looking at the supplied picture and your plant list - I would not go with full EI for dosing.
Are you familiar with Rotala Butterfly?
If you are switching to dry ferts the above calculator is very helpful.
you will probably find many with a tank full of stem plants and a lot of light have a weekly macro dosing of 20/5/30 N/P/K
What that really means is there weekly doing of KNO3 would be 20ppm. Their KH2PO4 weekly dosing would be 5ppm. Their weekly K (potassium) would be around 30ppm. Most of the K comes from the K in KNO3 and the K in KH2PO4. Some K2SO4 can be added to bring the K value up.

Now with all that mumbo jumbo said...

I would guess your tank with a lower lighting level might be able to get by with a leaner dosing. Something like a weekly total of 5/2 or 3/15?
Something else to understand when I say a weekly total...
Some of us do a 50% (or larger) water change on Sunday, then immediately add in a weeks worth of macros.
Others will divide up their weeks worth of macros into 3 equal doses.

 

[Clare]

Thanks very much for this reply. Interesting stuff.

I’ve been aiming to achieve NO3 of roughly 15-20ppm by water change day (about 70% - the amount I need to take out while vacuuming up all the detritus in the bottom of the tank and sump!)…
….that was while I had all the stems in there…

…so it sounds like I can pull right back on that!
…

Questions!:
- is there a resource to approximate what N/P/K particular plant species need?

- re frequency of dosing, I imagine you would want to achieve the dose of nutrients required for plant health after the first dose and then keep it there?… so through the week, as these are used up by plants, and as livestock/organic decomposition contribute, these concentrations will change…
…how do you manage this with your frequency of dosing?

- perhaps my previous question is asking this….are you aiming for a constant target concentration?

- is it reasonable to continue with CO2 levels as they have been running? (Drop checker max yellow/green - yet to set up pH controller) Ie. Is there a downside to running CO2 higher, if I am pulling back on lighting and ferts? (Other than burning through CO2 faster!)

Thanks again!!

 

[*Ci*]

I am running my two tanks almost exactly as you have described. Low lights, non demanding plants, similar to your list, slow growing and easy maintenance. I am using the rotala butterfly recommendations using the ”EI low light/weekly“ option in the pull down menu and with dry ferts.
I calculated for Kno3, K2so4 and csm+b. I don’t add phosphate because my tap has plenty. I also add calcium chloride and magnesium sulphate to achieve 6 dgH.

I dose all macros and micros once a week after a 50% water change. So far it is working out nicely for me, and I am seeing pretty much zero algae. Some plants are growing slow, some fast, all healthy. I recently decided to add back co2 (I had it off completely when I decided to switch to low tech) and am running it at a little over a .5 drop in pH. for the past 3 weeks. I have not changed my dosing or lights. The hope is to see a little faster growth in my buce, anubias and swords and I *think* I’m achieving that : )

My 68g and 84g tanks with crypts, swords, anubias, buce, weeping moss, apnogeton, vals, java fern, and maybe a few other things ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[BigWave]

People get so scared of the term EI and it baffles me. The Estimative Index (EI) is a way of dosing so that the tank has ample amounts of all fertilziers in the water coloumn. The plants can pick and choose what they need and require. The big thing is doing the 50% water change after each week so as to flush out the waste before starting over the next week. You do not have to dose the full dose. Often people divide it in half, thirds or even quarters. As in the saying EI daily which is the entire dose amount split into 5 days then dosed daily.
There are many dosing regiems guides etc. Look at it like recipies for baking cookies. There are so many but they all produce cookies.
My advice is find someone you admire or like their tank style etc. See what they do, ask questions and try the same approach.
There are basically 2 types of dosing methods Ei as in lard it on and lean. Most of the rest of the world tends to dose on the leaner side except for us Americans which go all out. Dosing the pure EI method gets expensive quick so alot of people dry dose or make their own solutions.
Guess it all depends upon what you find best, or how your plants react to what your dosing is all that matters. Always start lean and work your way upwards. If you start at full EI all at once youll fight algae for months.

 

[JPog]

... Always start lean and work your way upwards. If you start at full EI all at once you'll fight algae for months.

This is very controversial. I know there are two camps to this. I've never personally experienced this, but I know others state they have. Most EI type dosed tanks have excess, so I've never understood what the difference is whether the tank has for example 10ppm No3 sitting in the water or 50ppm in terms of algae developing.

 

[Clare]

This is very controversial. I know there are two camps to this. I've never personally experienced this, but I know others state they have. Most EI type dosed tanks have excess, so I've never understood what the difference is whether the tank has for example 10ppm No3 sitting in the water or 50ppm in terms of algae developing.

This a total newbs thought, so bin at will….

….but perhaps the effect of higher NO3 concentrations on algae growth depends on the mechanism of nutrient uptake in algae?
Ie. If it is impacted by the concentration gradient between intracellular and extracellular nutrient concentrations? In other words, the higher the NO3 concentration in the water column, the greater the nutrient uptake?? Maybe??

(I know it’s no where near as simple as that, otherwise most EI tanks would be full of very happy algae!)

 

[Clare]

Sorry, another question related to all of this…
….if we say something like “dose to 20/5/30” are we aiming to have those concentrations consistently at those levels? Ie. In the perfect world we’d have something like a “fert infusion” running, titrate according to the measured levels.

….or to achieve as similar result, a big dose after water change, and then little top ups through the week depending on flux in the tank?

 

[Immortal1]

So, the question is... target dosing or weekly dosing? Going pretty deep down the rabbit hole LOL
Enough people will state a weekly dosing of 20/5/30 with a 50% water change. In the world of target doing, the theoretical water column would end up at 40/10/60. If you were doing a 75% weekly water change, the theoretical water column would end up at 30/7.5/45.

I have seen some people brag that they get by with a weekly dosing of 7/1.5/10 with only a 25% weekly water change. Well, that would end up creating a theoretical target dosing of...... 20/5/30 Like I said, pretty deep rabbit hole.

Ideally it would be nice to have some type of automatic measuring system tied into auto dosers such that the water column always stayed at ??/?/??. The reality is we are pretty much guessing most of the time. Some have gotten better at guessing than others LOL.

For the last year or so I have been doing at least a 75% weekly water (including dumping all the water out of the canister filter). Then adding back in the weeks worth of macros. Then again, I have a lot of fish and this helps keep the water cleaner. If you had just shrimp I would imagine you could get by with much smaller water changes.

So, did I answer your question? Or add to the confusion...

 

[JPog]

This a total newbs thought, so bin at will….

….but perhaps the effect of higher NO3 concentrations on algae growth depends on the mechanism of nutrient uptake in algae?
Ie. If it is impacted by the concentration gradient between intracellular and extracellular nutrient concentrations? In other words, the higher the NO3 concentration in the water column, the greater the nutrient uptake?? Maybe??

(I know it’s no where near as simple as that, otherwise most EI tanks would be full of very happy algae!)

I doubt it and in fact, mentioned in @Immortal1 post is that many are now front loading macros without any algae side effects. So they are basically throwing in triple the amounts they used to when they were dosing 3x weekly.

 

[Immortal1]

I doubt it and in fact, mentioned in @Immortal1 post is that many are now front loading macros without any algae side effects. So they are basically throwing in triple the amounts they used to when they were dosing 3x weekly.

Yes, sort of LOL.
If you think of Target Dosing... lets say my target is 20/5/30. And thru amazing scientific testing I can document I actually have 20/5/30 in my tank just before I do a 50% water change....
The water change would remove, in theory, 10/2.5/15 of the nutrients. Then I add back in 10/2.5/15 to create a total water column of 20/5/30 - but with 50% less organic wastes and other pollutants.

So, I guess the reality is there should not be any algae issues by front loading macros because all we really are doing is replacing what was removed by the water change.

 

[JPog]

Yes, sort of LOL.
If you think of Target Dosing... lets say my target is 20/5/30. And thru amazing scientific testing I can document I actually have 20/5/30 in my tank just before I do a 50% water change....
The water change would remove, in theory, 10/2.5/15 of the nutrients. Then I add back in 10/2.5/15 to create a total water column of 20/5/30 - but with 50% less organic wastes and other pollutants.

So, I guess the reality is there should not be any algae issues by front loading macros because all we really are doing is replacing what was removed by the water change.

Yes I agree, but you're talking about removing organics as the main safeguard against algae right, not the removal of the inorganic No3, or am I misunderstanding you? Right after the water change when you reload the macros, apart from uptake you're still sitting with a heavy load in the tank for a week (less everyday), but still far heavily than typical EI 3x weekly.

 

[BigWave]

One more thing that people dont really talk too much about is plant nutrient uptake. For instance I've seen dwarf 4 leaf clover consume upwards of 4ppm PO4 per day in my old high light tank. Or in Ludwigia meta's case, the more NO3 you dose the faster it grows and the bigger and redder it becomes. It and its cousin are great indicators. Most of the very fine needle leaved plants love the trace elements.
Somewhere on the web is a great article showing how to test your paramters daily at specific times per day. Tally these up over several weeks and you have your tank consumption rate. They then mixed their fertz acording to this new data. For the life of me I cant find it though.
I think the main thing here is every single tank is different and has different needs. During its growth it even changes, people often forget this. A good example is If I trim my high light stem tank which is getting 5ppm NO3 per day down. I very much need to acomodate the dosing by dropping it down to say 2.5ppm becasue all the plant mass is gone or instant algae bloom.
I guess it boils down to watch your plants. You can most definately see growth almost daily if your doing it right.

 

[Clare]

So, the question is... target dosing or weekly dosing? Going pretty deep down the rabbit hole LOL
Enough people will state a weekly dosing of 20/5/30 with a 50% water change. In the world of target doing, the theoretical water column would end up at 40/10/60. If you were doing a 75% weekly water change, the theoretical water column would end up at 30/7.5/45.

I have seen some people brag that they get by with a weekly dosing of 7/1.5/10 with only a 25% weekly water change. Well, that would end up creating a theoretical target dosing of...... 20/5/30 Like I said, pretty deep rabbit hole.

Ideally it would be nice to have some type of automatic measuring system tied into auto dosers such that the water column always stayed at ??/?/??. The reality is we are pretty much guessing most of the time. Some have gotten better at guessing than others LOL.

For the last year or so I have been doing at least a 75% weekly water (including dumping all the water out of the canister filter). Then adding back in the weeks worth of macros. Then again, I have a lot of fish and this helps keep the water cleaner. If you had just shrimp I would imagine you could get by with much smaller water changes.

So, did I answer your question? Or add to the confusion...

Ummmm. A bit of both!

I don’t quite follow your numbers from your first paragraph. Using that logic, the concentration would increase incrementally every week, if we kept adding the same amount, wouldn’t it?

Ie. Wouldn’t we need to add less and less each week?

….of course that’s not accounting for how much is being used up by the plants!

Soooo….I guess now I’m asking, why don’t we test our nutrient levels after a water change, and adjust the amount of ferts we then add, to achieve a certain concentration in the water column?

I hope you don’t mind all these questions! It’s all very interesting to me!
(I am used to dealing with therapeutic drug doses and concentrations, so can’t help thinking about applying the same principles!)

 

[Clare]

Yes, sort of LOL.
If you think of Target Dosing... lets say my target is 20/5/30. And thru amazing scientific testing I can document I actually have 20/5/30 in my tank just before I do a 50% water change....
The water change would remove, in theory, 10/2.5/15 of the nutrients. Then I add back in 10/2.5/15 to create a total water column of 20/5/30 - but with 50% less organic wastes and other pollutants.

So, I guess the reality is there should not be any algae issues by front loading macros because all we really are doing is replacing what was removed by the water change.

But by “front loading” don’t you mean overshooting the concentration. Ie. Giving what would otherwise be a divided dose over a week all at once at the start?
…or have I misunderstood the idea of a single weekly dose vs divided doses?

 

[GreggZ]

But by “front loading” don’t you mean overshooting the concentration. Ie. Giving what would otherwise be a divided dose over a week all at once at the start?
…or have I misunderstood the idea of a single weekly dose vs divided doses?

To understand why people "front load" nutrients you first need to understand how accumulation works and how to calculate the maximum theoretical accumulation based on dosing and water changes.

Here's a link where I discuss this in my journal.

Journal - Greggz 120G Rainbow Fish Tank - Part Deux!

I hope everyone who has joined is enjoying the forum. Over time my plan is to post summaries of many of the discussions from my old long running thread that I kept on another site. Keep in mind these posts are my thoughts on a particular subject based my experience. Others may have other ideas...

scapecrunch.com

And here is a link to my journal where I discuss front end loading. When I started doing this years ago people thought I was nuts. I would say it's easily as good as daily or other day dosing, and in many cases better.

Journal - Greggz 120G Rainbow Fish Tank - Part Deux!

I hope everyone who has joined is enjoying the forum. Over time my plan is to post summaries of many of the discussions from my old long running thread that I kept on another site. Keep in mind these posts are my thoughts on a particular subject based my experience. Others may have other ideas...

scapecrunch.com

 

[BigWave]

Soooo….I guess now I’m asking, why don’t we test our nutrient levels after a water change, and adjust the amount of ferts we then add, to achieve a certain concentration in the water column?

You wil understand soon enough.... Most people just starting out in the hobby want to test everything all the time and make sure all the data and numbers are on point. Then comes the realization that its a ton of work and quite frankly not worth it. Especially when you can just dose and see the plants actually reacting.

 

[BigWave]

@Clare here are some videos for you....
1st from George Farmer
2nd from the late Filipe Oliveira
3rd Logan Rando Aquascaping

 

[Clare]

To understand why people "front load" nutrients you first need to understand how accumulation works and how to calculate the maximum theoretical accumulation based on dosing and water changes.

Here's a link where I discuss this in my journal.

Journal - Greggz 120G Rainbow Fish Tank - Part Deux!

I hope everyone who has joined is enjoying the forum. Over time my plan is to post summaries of many of the discussions from my old long running thread that I kept on another site. Keep in mind these posts are my thoughts on a particular subject based my experience. Others may have other ideas...

scapecrunch.com

And here is a link to my journal where I discuss front end loading. When I started doing this years ago people thought I was nuts. I would say it's easily as good as daily or other day dosing, and in many cases better.

Journal - Greggz 120G Rainbow Fish Tank - Part Deux!

I hope everyone who has joined is enjoying the forum. Over time my plan is to post summaries of many of the discussions from my old long running thread that I kept on another site. Keep in mind these posts are my thoughts on a particular subject based my experience. Others may have other ideas...

scapecrunch.com

Thanks so much. I’ll have a good look at this.

 

[Clare]

@Clare here are some videos for you....
1st from George Farmer
2nd from the late Filipe Oliveira
3rd Logan Rando Aquascaping

Great, thanks. I’ll check it out.
(….and return with 1000s of questions!)