Krandall
Community Member
This thread is for the general discussion of the Article Can You Have a Planted Tank Without CO2? Of Course!. Please add to the discussion here.
Can You Have a Planted Tank Without CO2? Of Course!
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“…with the advent of LED’s, most manufacturers are producing kit tanks with too MUCH light. The result is algae, and the response from beginners is to cut back on the number of hours that they leave the lights on. The problem is, this is not the real answer! The real answer is to reduce intensity, not duration.”
The article explains well the importance of reducing intensity vs photoperiod, and various methods of reducing intensity..
But, how do you determine how much intensity to go with short of a PAR meter?
The article explains well the importance of reducing intensity vs photoperiod, and various methods of reducing intensity..
But, how do you determine how much intensity to go with short of a PAR meter?
Krandall
Community Member
- Thread starter
- #4
It's tough. I do have a PAR meter, mostly because I use it when studying plants in the wild. But for the novice aquarist, it is probably safe to assume that any "kit" light is probably too strong if you are not using supplemental CO2. Best to reduce the light in one of the ways mentioned, at least to start with. It's easier for a novice to increase the intensity slowly than to deal with an algae mess, IMO. Algae freaks people out!
Count Krunk
Active Member
This was after some maintenance after ignoring this shrimp tank for 3 months.
No dosing no co2, just dirt capped sub.
Well, no question it is easier to prevent algae than to clean it up..
I recently turned off the co2 to a tank on a lower level of a stand near floor level for my Grandsons to enjoy while they play with my Matchbox City from when I was a child. At 59, getting on my hands and knees to prune and replant weekly has exceeded my comfort zone..
I turned the lighting down by about half when I turned off the co2 and cut ferts down to about 1/4 of before. Still doing weekly 50% water changes but hoping to taper those off as well.
This scape is still in construction but I wanted to share an example of a low tech tank with high light intensity and high duration. 3 chihiros WRGB II 90 Pros at 80% for 11.5 hrs with 1 hr ramp up/down. Though maybe the lighting isn't as intense as I think it is with the tank being deeper than most. But It does have a steep slope. 50% WC every 2 weeks.
Luciën
Community Member
This just blew my mind, and I see aquasoil also with no algae on the hardscape..
Do you dose ferts on it?
ATM I am experimenting with only dosing potassium and seeing how it goes. I
also dose CSM+B/DTPA/Gluconate for micros daily via peristaltic pump.
Lol when you see the benefit that CO2 offers, even in a low-energy tank, it's hard not to use it.
With all due respect to my fellow and more knowledgeable hobbyists, I have stopped recommending no-CO2 tanks to beginners. With the greater availability of CO2 today, it just isn't worth the challenges of no-CO2, IMHO.
At least IME, a beginner will face harder algae issues when they don't start with CO2. This may be a controversial perspective but it is what I've seen.
With all due respect to my fellow and more knowledgeable hobbyists, I have stopped recommending no-CO2 tanks to beginners. With the greater availability of CO2 today, it just isn't worth the challenges of no-CO2, IMHO.
At least IME, a beginner will face harder algae issues when they don't start with CO2. This may be a controversial perspective but it is what I've seen.
Krandall
Community Member
- Thread starter
- #14
I don’t think that’s controversial. As I said in the little article that started this, the marginal cost of adding CO2, when setting up a planted tank is just not that much, on any but a nano tank. So IMO, there are very few reasons NOT to use it other than fear…
Unless you are purposely using lack of CO2 tl limit plant growth for maintenance purposes.
Unless you are purposely using lack of CO2 tl limit plant growth for maintenance purposes.
ElleDee
Active Member
My perspective is different now, but my reasons for avoiding CO2 came from a desire to avoid cost and complexity, and very low expectations for what I was expecting to get out of my first tank. I think it's easy to say "oh, it's not that much" to add CO2 but when everything is new to you and you have to buy everything, it feels like a lot.
I read a lot of people who emphatically discouraged diy CO2, and there was an attitude of "you get what you pay for" in regards to regulators and needle valves that can give the impression that cheaper off the shelf CO2 systems are not worth the money. Then you get into the many decisions about how you are going to get the co2 into the water, how to tune the system correctly, on and on. And this of course comes after you've had to tackle the lights, the substrate, the filter, fertilizers... I would have had a hard time believing that it could me not that expensive or difficult. Like I said, my perspective has changed now, I am more dedicated to the hobby, have more experience, and can navigate all of this. But it didn't seem doable as a beginner.
I think @Yugang is absolutely right about how the messaging online about CO2 was not really beginner friendly, at least at TPT when I was starting out. If I had seen it laid out as above, or was more familiar with people running ~15 ppm CO2 successfully (which, as we've talked about, used to be the norm!) I may have come to different conclusions. I have run across individuals who took a more casual approach to CO2, but they seemed to be in the minority. The perils of groupthink, I suppose, and another reason I love hearing about what people used to do, and less common practices people are following - lots of good stuff to learn from!
I read a lot of people who emphatically discouraged diy CO2, and there was an attitude of "you get what you pay for" in regards to regulators and needle valves that can give the impression that cheaper off the shelf CO2 systems are not worth the money. Then you get into the many decisions about how you are going to get the co2 into the water, how to tune the system correctly, on and on. And this of course comes after you've had to tackle the lights, the substrate, the filter, fertilizers... I would have had a hard time believing that it could me not that expensive or difficult. Like I said, my perspective has changed now, I am more dedicated to the hobby, have more experience, and can navigate all of this. But it didn't seem doable as a beginner.
I think @Yugang is absolutely right about how the messaging online about CO2 was not really beginner friendly, at least at TPT when I was starting out. If I had seen it laid out as above, or was more familiar with people running ~15 ppm CO2 successfully (which, as we've talked about, used to be the norm!) I may have come to different conclusions. I have run across individuals who took a more casual approach to CO2, but they seemed to be in the minority. The perils of groupthink, I suppose, and another reason I love hearing about what people used to do, and less common practices people are following - lots of good stuff to learn from!
*Ci*
Active Member
My experience as a beginner, was somewhat the opposite of @ElleDee ’s.
I really wanted to learn and embrace “high tech”. I a decent budget, and was mostly limited by what was available to me in Canada.
I bought off the shelf Co2 Art equipment, spent a lot of money on plants that seem much less expensive in the US, what I though were decent lights (and still do, though they a an unpopular brand - Current Satellite Plus Pros), and learned how to dose dry salts using the EI method.
My two aquariums did fine, for the most part, but I was forever fiddling with the co2 - regulator leaks, malfunctions that needed chat time with tech support, frustratingly imprecise needle valves. At one point I added Dwyer flow meters to help, and had immediate problems with them (knob too stiff to turn, little balls stuck in the fluid).
I was getting tired of the high maintenance, including the care of fast growing stems, and reminisced about non-co2 planted tanks I had in the distant past, so one day I tore everything down, removed the ADA soil and rescaped with only low energy plants. My outlook and enjoyment improved dramatically : )
The plants in my two aquariums were growing nice and healthy, but slow, and though they are not as colourful as the high tech counterparts, they are still incredibly beautiful to my eye. After a time, I started feeling that since I had all this equipment laying around, maybe the tanks would benefit from a small amount of injected c02 (in fact, Karen Randall gave me the idea in chatting with her on another forum). I set everything up again, and in fact I even invested in a second 10lb. tank for seemless switch overs when one was empty. Things were running smoothly until that first switch over occurred. Suddenly my regulator just quit working correctly and I am stumped as to what is wrong with it and how to fix it, other than to just buy a whole new unit.
I had not noticed any difference in the health or growth rates of my tanks after adding co2 back, nor any difference now that it has been off for many months, so I have not bothered to fix the system at this point.
Ideally, if I could have an inexpensive and carefree co2 system in place, to inject small amounts into my tanks for that potential extra boost, I would. But I am tired of replacing malfunctioning equipment and even after having read the co2 spray bar thread numerous times, I am still feeling confused and daunted by the construction and operating of it (plus, there is no way the parts will be only $5 in my country, lol!)
I really wanted to learn and embrace “high tech”. I a decent budget, and was mostly limited by what was available to me in Canada.
I bought off the shelf Co2 Art equipment, spent a lot of money on plants that seem much less expensive in the US, what I though were decent lights (and still do, though they a an unpopular brand - Current Satellite Plus Pros), and learned how to dose dry salts using the EI method.
My two aquariums did fine, for the most part, but I was forever fiddling with the co2 - regulator leaks, malfunctions that needed chat time with tech support, frustratingly imprecise needle valves. At one point I added Dwyer flow meters to help, and had immediate problems with them (knob too stiff to turn, little balls stuck in the fluid).
I was getting tired of the high maintenance, including the care of fast growing stems, and reminisced about non-co2 planted tanks I had in the distant past, so one day I tore everything down, removed the ADA soil and rescaped with only low energy plants. My outlook and enjoyment improved dramatically : )
The plants in my two aquariums were growing nice and healthy, but slow, and though they are not as colourful as the high tech counterparts, they are still incredibly beautiful to my eye. After a time, I started feeling that since I had all this equipment laying around, maybe the tanks would benefit from a small amount of injected c02 (in fact, Karen Randall gave me the idea in chatting with her on another forum). I set everything up again, and in fact I even invested in a second 10lb. tank for seemless switch overs when one was empty. Things were running smoothly until that first switch over occurred. Suddenly my regulator just quit working correctly and I am stumped as to what is wrong with it and how to fix it, other than to just buy a whole new unit.
I had not noticed any difference in the health or growth rates of my tanks after adding co2 back, nor any difference now that it has been off for many months, so I have not bothered to fix the system at this point.
Ideally, if I could have an inexpensive and carefree co2 system in place, to inject small amounts into my tanks for that potential extra boost, I would. But I am tired of replacing malfunctioning equipment and even after having read the co2 spray bar thread numerous times, I am still feeling confused and daunted by the construction and operating of it (plus, there is no way the parts will be only $5 in my country, lol!)
Great, great comments! All so true.
@Yugang I know some of your inventions are currently being manufactured. For me, the spray bar is one that needs to be manufactured as well. Not many of us (or maybe just me) will not venture into DIYing it.
I'm in the process of writing an article for beginners that I hope will end up being a collective effort with an easy recipe for a beginner to follow. However, as you all point out, there are many ways to get started. I think finding a friendly community to help you figure things out and reassure you is one of the most important factors in finding long-term success.
@Yugang I know some of your inventions are currently being manufactured. For me, the spray bar is one that needs to be manufactured as well. Not many of us (or maybe just me) will not venture into DIYing it.
I'm in the process of writing an article for beginners that I hope will end up being a collective effort with an easy recipe for a beginner to follow. However, as you all point out, there are many ways to get started. I think finding a friendly community to help you figure things out and reassure you is one of the most important factors in finding long-term success.
ElleDee
Active Member
This would be great, but as it is just a simple piece of plastic I am not so sure if any manufacturer would pick this up. The good news is that I can make one in less than 30 minutes, if I do it quick in 10 minutes, I will post a refresher how I do it.
Actually I am considering the same, following the method that I posted above, 15 ppm stabilised with CO2 Spray Bar in overflow mode. I am not getting much feedback so far, which is a bit surprising as it gives a rather significant simplification of the CO2 process as compared to what we have now. No dialling in, no need for water chemistry, no need for drop checker, and always stable. My tank is doing great, and I will not be surprised if this will be my setup for the next year. If we would have one or two hobbyists validating same in their tanks, that would add a lot of value and with writing it up in an article we can make CO2 so much easier for beginners.