Welcome to ScapeCrunch

We are ScapeCrunch, the place where planted aquarium hobbyists come to build relationships and support each other. When you're tired of doom scrolling, you've found your home here.

Beauty as the ultimate proof: The (mis)correct criteria for assessing the condition of aquarium plants and animals

Status
Not open for further replies.
Chapter 1: Assessing the true status of plants/animals is not as easy as it first appears

1) First premise: The overall condition of an organism can be assessed by its external form or by its internal contents.
--- with the content being [with few exceptions] more important than the form, because the specific form is [in most cases] based on the content
--- the content has more predictive value than the form
--- there are exceptions when form may override content: e.g. external mechanical damage [e.g. due to too strong water flow or leaf nibbling by snails/fish] or algae/cyanobacteria infestation of plants [not due to their poor condition, but simply due to uncontrolled algal overgrowth]

2) Second premise: Most aquarists judge the condition of their plants/animals by their external form.
--- typically by growth rate, size, coloration, absence of external deformities or absence of algae (in plants) or by liveliness/vigor, appetite and ability to reproduce (in animals)

3) Result: Most aquarists judge the condition of their plants/animals by secondary (and therefore potentially misleading) measures.

Examples (possible combinations) of external and internal organism conditions that can theoretically occur:

A) good form + good content

1) External form = good​
2) Internal content = good​
3) Overall condition = optimal​

B) good form + poor content

1) External form = good => e.g. disturbed internal metabolism but not reflected in external appearance
2) Internal content = bad​
3) Overall condition = suboptimal​

  • Example (in fish): higher concentration of harmful substances in internal organs, nephrocalcinosis (deposits in kidneys), higher mortality rate of fry, shorter lifespan, overall higher stress levels etc.
  • Example (in plants): higher concentration of harmful substances or too high concentration of nutrients in the tissue, "obesity", increased excretion of organic exudates, mild poisoning (narcotic effect), different colouration - richer or paler (paradoxically considered desirable by aquarists and as evidence of optimal condition)

C) poor form + good content

1) External form = bad => e.g. external deformation due to purely external damage (without serious impact on the overall state of internal metabolism)
2) Internal content = good​
3) Overall condition = suboptimal​

D) poor form + poor content

1) External form = poor => e.g. disturbed internal metabolism which is also reflected in the external appearance
2) Internal content = bad​
3) Overall condition = suboptimal​

It is important to realize that we do not know the inner content (i.e. the current state of metabolic processes) and we do not have many options to find out. However, if we don't know the second (and more important) part of the equation, we can't be sure of the outcome either!

PS: Many times we do everything we can to achieve the image we want to see in our aquarium, even at the cost of "torturing" its inhabitants. We are not interested in what our plants (or animals) like, but we have elevated our aesthetic preferences to a standard (measure) by which to judge their condition. If a plant fits our aesthetic preferences, then we declare it "perfectly healthy" (i.e. in optimal condition), without acknowledging the possibility that it may be in state B (i.e. good form + poor content).

Chapter 2: So how do we properly assess the condition of our plants/animals to be as close to reality as possible, even if we can't see inside them?

1) Take inspiration from nature (with its laws), use common sense and do not use extreme methods (typically for example unnaturally high nutrient doses)!

A number of scientific studies have presented the evidence that unnaturally high concentrations of certain nutrients (or inappropriate ratios) can be harmful to different plants [under certain circumstances].
--- For example, some studies have suggested that CO2 concentrations above 40 ppm can have a narcotic effect on some plants. Other specialized or scholarly literature recommends 10-20 ppm as the maximum recommended long-term CO2 concentration for aquatic organisms, as higher concentrations can lead to various internal metabolic and physiological disturbances. If it is true that we should not expose aquarium animals to CO2 concentrations above 20 ppm, but we still expose them to such concentrations [long term], then what else can we call it but deliberate torture?

Such high nutrient concentrations [that are used and recommended by some aquarists] are not commonly found anywhere in unpolluted natural waters.
--- While this does not mean anything in itself, it is good to realize that if something is not commonly found in nature (i.e. plants and animals do not normally encounter it), then it is highly likely that they have not developed any mechanisms to cope with such unnatural concentrations (= extremes), or they do have some mechanisms, but they are not built for such extreme situations (i.e. extreme nutrient concentrations). This assumption is logical and central, and is supported by a number of scientific studies.

If we cannot be 100% certain that the concentrations of nutrients (or other agents) we use are truly harmless to our plants/animals, then it is certainly reasonable to stick to such concentrations and mimic conditions that are as close as possible to the natural ones in which the plants/animals in question have thrived for thousands of years (and are thus perfectly evolutionarily adapted to).

While using extremely high doses of nutrients may result in "bigger, faster growing and more colourful" plants, it may also place an unnatural strain on their internal metabolism (in other words, stress them continuously).
--- I have unfortunately met aquarists who cannot admit this possibility. They believe that "good form" is automatically unquestionable proof of overall optimal condition.

2) Continue to evaluate plants/animals by external form, but with the understanding that it is not the only (and obviously not the most important!) measure.

3) If you can afford it, also perform internal content analysis (e.g., dry matter nutrient content can be a relatively useful indicator).

4) Conduct comparative tests.

--- Why use extreme methods when similar results can often be achieved with much more moderate methods that are much gentler on aquarium plants/animals?
--- Take a look at my latest experiment for example, where I only use something like ~11 ppm CO2 (+ very low doses of other nutrients) and think about whether it is really necessary to use that much more.

A few final notes on algae:

Sometimes we use to say that "algae only attack unhealthy plants". But how can we know that a plant infested with algae is unhealthy if we are only able to judge its health by its external form?

Of course, it is possible (even likely) that a fast-growing leaf is a worse surface for algae to attach to than a slow-growing (or stagnant) leaf. Of course, a healthy organism is generally more resistant to disease than an unhealthy one. But does this always and everywhere (in all circumstances) apply? Will a plant that grows in an environment perfectly suited to algae successfully resist it? And will it resist them even if we remove all algae eaters (snails/shrimps) from the aquarium, cancel filtration, stop using the surface skimmer, stop regular maintenance and water changes? I highly doubt it. On the contrary, I am convinced that if you remove all the means that help keep algae at bay from the aquarium, then the healthiest plant will not be able to resist them. In an aquarium with no filtration and no bunch of shrimps, algae will simply appear after a month, even if you crawl on hands and knees over broken glass. And regular maintenance and weekly 50% water changes won't help either. On the other hand, with an army of shrimps I don't have to do anything and the algae will never show up.

I know this topic will probably be a bit controversial for some, but I wanted to bring it up here anyway, so that we can at least think about it. I am not imposing my views here on anyone. Advocates as well as opponents of my views will surely find many other arguments to support their views (which is certainly a good thing).
 
Agreed! Like I said above healthy debate is good for the hobby. Lots of rabbit holes to jump down. I hope that is where this goes, but sadly I think it's unlikely.

As to the comparison to philosophy I don't get it as well. We are talking about growing plants here. What works and what doesn't. Not sure how philosophy gets inserted into that but hey everyone is entitled to their opinion and point of view.
Well, epistomology is a branch of philosophy and Epistomology is a bear…it is squishy….


“The school of skepticism questions the human ability to attain knowledge while fallibilism says that knowledge is never certain. Empiricists hold that all knowledge comes from sense experience, whereas rationalists believe that some knowledge does not depend on it. Coherentists argue that a belief is justified if it coheres with other beliefs. Foundationalists, by contrast, maintain that the justification of basic beliefs does not depend on other beliefs. Internalism and externalism disagree about whether justification is determined solely by mental states or also by external circumstances.”

So yeah, it is pretty much impossible to not have your philosophy affect what you believe in some ultimate sense…

Lol, thats good^

This issue here isnt that a philosophical difference exists. In that sense any two opposing points of view are philosophical differences. What keeps these potentially interesting discussions here from going anywhere is when one party completely abandons the point(s) they have made as soon as somebody questions it, or offers a different point of view (disagrees) Instead of just addressing the disagreements with further evidence of their own point, or simply admitting that the other point is valid too

Anything besides total acceptance...is not acceptable. The subject immediately changes to their beliefs are just "too controversial" like there is some mob mentality here against them. Its unfortunate really
 
or simply admitting that the other point is valid too

Anything besides total acceptance...is not acceptable. The subject immediately changes to their beliefs are just "too controversial" like there is some mob mentality here against them. Its unfortunate really
Joe we've seen this exact approach to what could be fruitful interesting discussions many times over the years.

And I agree, it's unfortunate. I really enjoy debating these types of things but I'm not willing to totally surrender my own observations of the hobby.
 
Last edited:
Honestly, even the idea of “Beauty being the ultimate proof” is problematic in its own right…. Beauty is subjective.. what one person thinks is beautiful, another might perceive as gaudy or tacky…
 
Honestly, even the idea of “Beauty being the ultimate proof” is problematic in its own right…. Beauty is subjective.. what one person thinks is beautiful, another might perceive as gaudy or tacky…
LOL lord knows my tank has been accused of being gaudy or tacky at times! :D

But doesn't matter I am still working on making the perfect "fruit stand"!!
 
Last edited:
Honestly, even the idea of “Beauty being the ultimate proof” is problematic in its own right…. Beauty is subjective.. what one person thinks is beautiful, another might perceive as gaudy or tacky…

"Can pictures prove a plant is healthy?" would still be problematic. Before you can prove anything you have to know what the proof looks like

"They may be uncomfortable inside" because of <possible but unverifiable reasons> isnt proof. Thats just blanketed cover to discredit other methods that have tons of pictures to back them up, by asserting that pics dont tell the whole story

Meanwhile, here's some experiments using pics to show the results
 
Last edited:
I remember when I got more heavily into the hobby, I read Vin's going Dutch with Aquasoil thread many times over (and your original thread too!) and there was always a common theme. When things went south and algae cropped up, he didn't play whack-a-mole with ferts. Instead he rolled up his sleeves and got in there and cleaned things up, removed dying/dead plant matter, and created a little more elbow room between the species.

And not to say fert dosing doesn't make a difference. But if you don't get the other parts right the most perfect fert dosing in the world won't save you.

There is a reason there is an old saying in the hobby.........keep your sleeves wet! It's the solution to most problems.
This is the biggest thing I have learned since restarting my journey. Fertilizers, brand of light, etc does not matter if you do not do thorough maintenance and are not consistent with co2, ferts, amount of light. I have learned how long I can push the maintenance without a major algae outbreak both from curiosity and from a need standpoint, and that is 2 weeks max for my tanks. After that more algae crops up more quickly in my tanks. Sure I may have a strand here or there every week, but I do not get an algae takeover until after that 2 week mark.

This is even true in sudipta non-co2 style tanks I have learned. My biggest headscratcher is this tank actually but I have consistently been vacuuming detritus and doing frequent water changes the past few weeks. Before I recently starting doing this, I was consistently getting thread algae on plants and substrate. This was 100% due to my lack of experience with aquasoil's and choosing the one with the highest ammonia concentration. I am dosing similarly as PPS but I'm very inconsistent on this tank with dosing though. Though temperature may play a role in this as well as the tank is sitting at 62.2F the other day(might be colder now), so I am not getting optimal growth from a temperature standpoint on these plants. Ideally getting this between 68-74F would produce better results, however I am trying to cut energy cost in the winter I am not going to provide a heater for this tank and see what happens.
 
I do think there are philosophical differences going on. I thought so even in the other thread that got so confrontational. If 1 person thinks that something can’t ever be proven beyond a shadow of a doubt, and another person thinks appearances are good enough proof for them, those are philosophical differences. I am actually fine with both of those perspectives, because they don’t really negate each other. I do agree that if someone posts their opinions in a forum, they should be willing to discuss those opinions with other members that offer their own opinions and experiences. The problem I see here is that there is apparently a lot of past history that makes those comments (and responses) more confrontational (even snarky) than they appear on the surface. Sarcasm is not helpful. If participants won’t listen to each other and actually try to understand the other point of view and see where there might be a meeting of the minds, instead of rehashing the same arguments over and over, then there’s really no point in going on with it. It’s okay to just agree to disagree and move on.
 
The problem I see here is that there is apparently a lot of past history that makes those comments (and responses) more confrontational (even snarky) than they appear on the surface.
Yes there is. You might have heard of a very dark time in the hobby referred to as the microtox wars. It makes this conversation seem like child's play. It was brutal back then. This is comparatively tame.

Personally I am still open to the discussion. I think it's worthwhile. But I understand why some may get fatigued and give up on it.
 
I ran across some of that. It got really nasty. I really don’t want to see that happen here. I like this forum and want to see it grow!
 
I ran across some of that. It got really nasty. I really don’t want to see that happen here. I like this forum and want to see it grow!
Me too!

There is a fine line between keeping it civil and being heavy handed with censorship. I will say we have a great group of hobbyist here who help set the tone. One of the reasons this forum has been a pleasure to be involved with.
 
Me too!

There is a fine line between keeping it civil and being heavy handed with censorship. I will say we have a great group of hobbyist here who help set the tone. One of the reasons this forum has been a pleasure to be involved with.
I didn’t mean to imply that you don’t. Sorry if it came across that way! I know a moderator’s job is difficult. I don’t want censorship either. 🙂
 
Marcel, I apologize for not engaging on your experiment thread. I started a response several times and got sidetracked by real life. I think you would appreciate this paper about differing perspectives about what constitutes "plant health" and it is very relevant here as well.
Last note: In classical philosophy, there is one tried-and-true procedure for checking whether one's view is false: Turn that view (including its implications!) against yourself.

If the hypothesis presented in the article were valid (i.e. that all possible perspectives are relevant and all have roughly equal weight, or basically that "we are all right" or "all views/opinions are correct"), then one would have to acknowledge the right of, say, a pedophile to abuse young children, or a dictator to have a dictatorship, or a murderer to kill your husband. In fact, you're basically doing the same thing here by juxtaposing different theories and agreeing that each of those definitions is valid (from a certain perspective). This position is called relativism in philosophy (and is often being illustrated with the parable of the elephant and the blind men), and it can be shown quite easily that it is a mistaken view. The best way to escape this trap of relativism is to think about what is essential and what is secondary (accidental) => what is determinative (essential) for a given thing, without which it would not be what it is. For example, in defining a human being, it is a good idea to proceed by first realizing to what superordinate group of things (genus) he belongs, and then trying to find the characteristic that distinguishes him from other things in that group (or species) and makes him unique there (the so-called species difference). In this way you arrive quite easily at the definition that best describes a human being: "human = rational animal". Human beings belongs to the group of living creatures (animals), but what distinguishes him from other living creatures is their ability to act rationally (in the sense of logical reasoning). These two characteristics (i.e., life and reason) are the essential or defining characteristics of a human being. Without them, he would not be a human being (he would be something else). You can try a similar logical exercise with other things (e.g. plants). For example, do you think that when a plant ceases to have the function of food for others, it ceases to be a plant? Hardly. So it's already obvious that this property of "serving as food for others" is hardly going to convey its essence. Obviously it's something accidental (irrelevant). [Of course, I'm writing this rather simplistically.]

PS: From my point of view, a fruitful discussion is conducted by one person presenting his argument, and then the other trying to find a flaw in his argument, or (if he can't find one) admitting the truth of his argument. Here, that method of discussion is clearly not used, and instead new and new questions are continually introduced into the discussion, and new and new issues are raised, without first resolving (i.e., confirming or refuting) the initial argument, which makes the discussion very chaotic and hard to follow (hard to solve anything). I don't see the point in trying to answer any other questions when you have not yet refuted the very first point about the existence of external and internal measures (form and content), and that if you only use the external measures (form or beauty or aesthetics) then the fitness of the organism cannot be credibly assessed. Either that's true or false. But none of you have commented on that.
 
Last edited:
I’m not sure there’s a point in responding to a “last note”, but I’m going to take a whack at it anyway (speaking only for myself). I don’t think the assumptions you drew from that article are valid, that is I don’t think it’s saying what you believe it is saying, but I want to skip all that and respond to your first post in detail since that’s really what you’re asking for.

I agree that external form and internal contents are 2 different things, and the observable condition of one may not be an indication of the absolute condition of the other, but only an indication and someone speaking from a scientific perspective that requires all data to be observable and quantifiable should be careful and precise in their language. I see no problem with anyone else speaking casually about their plants or aquariums saying that they are beautifully healthy by every observable measure that we normally use.

I agree that content probably, usually, has more predictive value than form, but I don’t know that that can be proven in every single case no matter the organism. Also, how far into form are you going to go, down to electron microscopes and mitochondria? Even if everyone could do that, there still might be other unknowns. I suppose that’s part of your point. I’m just saying, that’s not a practicality. Anyway, I agree that most, if not all, aquarists judge the condition of their plants by their external form. This is because they don’t really have any other way to do it. Animals though, are also evaluated by their behavior, their ability to reproduce, and sometimes by specific tests done by a vet.

I don’t agree you can say the plants/animals are being tortured. First, I think it’s a pretty sweeping assumption that plants have enough self-awareness to even be capable of being tortured. Second, it’s too strong and emotional of a term. If the fish were being tortured they would be jumping out of the aquarium in droves instead of swimming around looking perfectly happy. Yes, if the CO2 is too high, or they haven’t been acclimated properly, so that they’re gasping at the surface, then I’ll agree that that could be torture for them, but I think we’re all talking about responsible fish-keepers that are doing their best not to have that happen.

I agree that aesthetic preferences may not indicate good health. This is true not just with excess ferts, but also with too much limitation of them.

Chapter 2 is supposed to provide other methods of assessment, but it’s mostly recommendations based on what you call common sense. I say “what you call”, not because it isn’t common sense, but because common sense is subjective and not a scientific term. The only internal method mentioned is dry matter nutrient content. I confess I don’t know what that is, but it sounds like you would have essentially kill the plant to do it. Maybe I’m wrong. I need more information.

Side note: What is a narcotic effect on a plant?

I do agree that if it’s been shown that certain nutrient or CO2 levels are harmful to a certain species of aquatic life, then we should avoid those conditions or avoid those species. I think caution should be taken, especially with wild-caught creatures, until we know with a reasonable certainty that they can adapt. I think the main tanks being subjected to high levels though (Dutch and garden-style) are using tank-raised fish well-known to be adaptable, and I would not accuse them of being irresponsible or torturing their fish. At the same time, I agree that if the same results can be obtained with more moderate levels of ferts and/or CO2 then that’s a preferable way to go.

With regard to algae, I agree that even the healthiest plant will succumb to algae when subjected to unhealthy/unbalanced conditions, but that’s because the plant becomes unhealthy in those conditions. It’s not because the plant was unhealthy in the first place. The conditions make the plant unhealthy and the algae is the result.

I disagree that an aquarium with no filtration and no shrimp will necessarily get algae if regular water changes and maintenance are still being done. There may be some minor amount that requires the glass to be cleaned, but you can certainly have a successful, basically algae-free tank under those conditions. Alternatively, you can have an algae-ridden tank even with an army of shrimp if you aren’t doing any maintenance or water changes and it gets out of whack.

None of this means that you should stop doing your experiments or sharing your thoughts! I agree with some things. I disagree with some things. I’m only going into so much detail because you asked for it. I’m not a scientist or an aquatic expert. I’m just a learner, but at one point in another thread you spoke critically of those that just look on and never put forth their own opinions, so now I’ve written a book, lol!
 
If the hypothesis presented in the article were valid (i.e. that all possible perspectives are relevant and all have roughly equal weight, or basically that "we are all right" or "all views/opinions are correct"), then one would have to acknowledge the right of, say, a pedophile to abuse young children, or a dictator to have a dictatorship, or a murderer to kill your husband.
This is an incredibly bad faith take and you should know that.
In fact, you're basically doing the same thing here by juxtaposing different theories and agreeing that each of those definitions is valid (from a certain perspective).
For the record, I take offense to this.
The best way to escape this trap of relativism is to think about what is essential and what is secondary (accidental) => what is determinative (essential) for a given thing, without which it would not be what it is. For example, in defining a human being, it is a good idea to proceed by first realizing to what superordinate group of things (genus) he belongs, and then trying to find the characteristic that distinguishes him from other things in that group (or species) and makes him unique there (the so-called species difference). In this way you arrive quite easily at the definition that best describes a human being: "human = rational animal". Human beings belongs to the group of living creatures (animals), but what distinguishes him from other living creatures is their ability to act rationally (in the sense of logical reasoning). These two characteristics (i.e., life and reason) are the essential or defining characteristics of a human being. Without them, he would not be a human being (he would be something else). You can try a similar logical exercise with other things (e.g. plants).
I regret to inform you that what constitutes a species is also a matter of scientific debate. I'd link you an article on the different species concepts, but I'm afraid you might imply that I support pedophiles again. :/ Unfortunately the details of taxonomy get even more shifty as you move up in rank and undermine your point here.

Also, while my background on animals is pretty weak, humans do not have a monopoly on rationality.

For example, do you think that when a plant ceases to have the function of food for others, it ceases to be a plant? Hardly. So it's already obvious that this property of "serving as food for others" is hardly going to convey its essence.
What I think is that I don't know how to scientifically convey a plant's "essence" or what that even means in specific terms.

It's difficult to even approach the evaluation of plants as food. I worked on a watermelon production project where we looked at weight, presence and degree of hollow heart (a watermelon deformity where there's an empty cavern in the middle), TDS (as a proxy measurement of sweetness, this was not my project and I don't understand how that works, no follow up questions, please) and lycopene content. Maybe we took acidity data too, I don't remember. Does this capture the whole gist of a watermelon plant. No, I would argue it doesn't get even capture the whole of watermelon as a food, but there's not enough time in the day, not enough undergrad interns to take data on everything, not enough money in the budget to run all the tests. You have to pick and choose based on what you think best gets at the question at hand and there's a lot that goes into that. The thrust of your argument is that the data we in the hobby is limited and inappropriate to address our shared concerns. Ok then, ditch the human health metaphors and get specific.

I don't see the point in trying to answer any other questions when you have not yet refuted the very first point about the existence of external and internal measures (form and content), and that if you only use the external measures (form or beauty or aesthetics) then the fitness of the organism cannot be credibly assessed. Either that's true or false. But none of you have commented on that.
That's because your form and content distinction is irrelevant. It's an unnecessary construct because whichever column a parameter falls into, it's all data. If you think we are missing the big picture in focusing on the stuff that we can easily see with our eyes, then talk about the specific measures that you think need to be addressed and why it matters for our hobby. We can't measure everything - not enough time, not enough interns, not enough money - so we have to pick and choose. I said at the beginning I think aesthetic measures are a pretty good way to evaluate given the context, but, yeah, it's a limited scope. I agree with that, actually. I could be convinced that there are other measures are important, but again, what are they and why should we care? If there are relevant papers, post those. There is a place for philosophy in science, but not at the expense of science.
 
I don’t agree you can say the plants/animals are being tortured. First, I think it’s a pretty sweeping assumption that plants have enough self-awareness to even be capable of being tortured. Second, it’s too strong and emotional of a term. If the fish were being tortured they would be jumping out of the aquarium in droves instead of swimming around looking perfectly happy. Yes, if the CO2 is too high, or they haven’t been acclimated properly, so that they’re gasping at the surface, then I’ll agree that that could be torture for them, but I think we’re all talking about responsible fish-keepers that are doing their best not to have that happen.
Having kept Rainbow fish for four decades I can tell that you that I have observed no difference in color, growth, health, or longevity in CO2 vs non CO2 tanks, nor any difference between lean and rich water column ferts.

In addition to planted tanks I am also active in the Rainbow fish hobby. I've posted countless pictures of my long lived fully mature healthy colorful Rainbows. It's not unusual for Rainbows to live over a decade in my tanks, which is pretty rare in the hobby overall.

More important are uber clean conditions, proper feeding (quality food fed at modest rates...ie not overfeeding), and good oxygen levels.

Of course I expect the argument that I really don't know how healthy my Rainbows are. Well in my world seeing is believing and I can tell you my Bows look exceedingly healthy.
 
1000037294.webp

Thank you everyone, for your vigorous and thoughtful participation in this discussion.

Referee closes the thread. Have a great Sunday!

Koan
Moderator
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top 10 Trending Threads

Back
Top