Help Aquasoils, Tissue Cultures, Water Parameters, & Planning.

[filmpunk]

This is my my first thread outside of the welcome thread and I apologize ahead of time for the the long post. As I mentioned in my Welcome thread I have a low tech 20 gallon high that I've kept for several years but as I prepare for my first true scape in a 40 gallon breeder I've been experimenting with a couple farm tanks set up with exclusively tissue culture plants in an effort to avoid introducing pest snails and/or any algae. Both farm tanks have zero hardscape other than a couple small rocks to anchor the buces/ anubias. I would LOVE some some input, advice, and suggestions so I can sucessfully start my first true aquascape. I have realistic expectations here, and know and accept that I will have set backs along the way and don't expect to have a IAPLC level tank. I would just like to give myself the best start possible.

The Farm Tanks:
5 gallon (planted for 43 days)
Substrate: Fluval Stratum
Filtration: HOB & Surface skimmer
Lighting: Fluval Aquasky
Tank is heavily planted with Buce, Staurogyne repens, Rotala Vietnam "h'ra", Alternanthera reineckii, Lobelia cardinalis, bacopa monnieri.

20 gallon long (planted for 6 days)
Substate: Fluval Stratum
Filtration: HOB & surface skimmer
Co2: Pressurized w/ in tank diffuser
Lighting: Fluval Aquasky
Planted with: Echinodorus Aflame, Blyxa Japonica, Hygrophila Pinnatifada, Lagenandra Meeboldii Green, Hygrophila Lancea araguaia, Riccadia chamedryfolia, anubias dragon claw, gratiola viscidula, buce, pogostemon helferi, crypt parva, & crypt lucens.

The Plan:
40 Gallon Breeder (36" L x 18" W x 17" H)
Substrate: Undecided
Filtration: Oase Biomaster 2 600
Co2: GLA inline diffuser & Regulator
Lighting: Netlea AT5S 590S
Hardscape: Manzanita Wood & Igneous Gneiss Rock found locally and tested w/ HCl
Plants: Anubias, Crypts, Buces, and others still to be determined.
Fertilization: Estimative Index utilizing Chihiros Auto Dosing System

I have received all the equipment. Now its time for laying out my hardscape & decision making regarding what substrate to use, water (mixing tap or remineralized RO), and plants. When ready I will start a Journal for this tank so anyone interested can follow along. Still playing with what I can grow, but would love some input on understanding plant husbandry. I'm trying to avoid plants that will take over the entire tank or that spread slowly enough that the tanks aesthetics can be relatively easy to maintain.

Questions:
@Phish Tank had asked about my water parameters in my Welcome thread, and I apologize for not getting back to you sooner. I have been mixing RO water w/ tap water to get my water into what I thought was an acceptable range (been testing and retesting the last few days), once mixed the parameters in the bucket are: 7.2 pH (tested w/ Apera instruments pen tester), TDS range 130-160, GH 9, KH 7.

After the water has sat in the tanks for about a week now w/ fertilizer dosing my water parameters are: 7pH, TDS 80-96, GH 5, KH 3-4, Ammonia 0, Nitrite 0, Nitrate 20. Ph drop w/ Co2 on was down to a 6.0. From my understanding this TDS is pretty low for aquatic plants. I'm wondering if I should I reconsider my ratios of tap/ ro for the time being until the softening affects of the aquasoil subside? Do aquasoils typically reduce TDS? Would I be better off simply remineralizing RO water (this was the suggestion of Jeff Senske @ ADG). The reason I've avoided this was simply the fact I do not have a RO unit and transporting all that water is cumbersome & the remineralization process seems complicated (at least trying to understand the use of Seachem Equilibrium, acid & alkaline buffer.) If remineralizing is the better option I'm open to transporting the RO water, but could anyone recommend a product and walk me through the process of remineralization. The reason I ask is while most of these plants do seem to be doing well so far, the pogostemon helferi is clearly melting in the 20 gallon. Also wonder if the carbon acid formed by the co2 injection may be having a negative impact on the plants & maybe starting with a softer water (with a lower KH) might be beneficial to mitigate this. Pics for both tanks upon planting and then today. For those who do remineralize when using new aquasoils do you need to make adjustments due to the softening characteristics of the aquasoil? Any recommendations for aquasoils that don't leach a lot of ammonia (This is why i went w/ fluval stratum for these farm tanks, along with its availability).

Should I add more plants to the 20 Gallon farm tank to have more density? I feel this was part of the reason I've been so far successful with the 5 gallon was it was planted pretty heavily from the start. I thought I bought enough plants for the 20 gallon, but after planting its still pretty sparse. Any plants that you all would recommend? Placement?

5 Gallon Farm Low Tech(Day 1 & Day 43):






20 Gallon Farm w/ co2(Day 1 & Day 6)
I apologize about the glass, picked up this tank used specifically for a farm tank and could not for the life of me remove the stains from the glass



Riccardia
Started off Yellowish, greening up nicely



Pinnatifada:
Very Very small tissue cultures, had to plant nearly completely covered to keep it in the soil, pushed some of the soil back away from plant since planting may have some growth, one plant looks to be melting slightly, too early to tell where this one is going.



Pogostemon Helferi (front) Blyxa Japonica (Back)
nearly all pogostemon is melting, have 2 specimens that may not be melting but still too early to tell.
Blyxa is doing OK, have had a little melt but its a new environment and I did break up the tissue culture into a few plants, it is one of the few plants that is actually pearling.



Hygrophila Lancea araguaia (midground next to diffuser) Echinodorus Aflame (Back)
Araguaia seems to be off the to the best start of all the plants in this tank.
Echinodorus arrived with only the leaves completely covered with the tissue gel, none of roots were in the gel. Looking a little rough but have seen new growth.

 

[Art]

I gave you a trophy for posting one of the best "first threads" I've seen. Congrats and thank you for helping others.

If you're like me, posting the plan, like you did, will help you organize your thoughts. This will hopefully help you not get overwhelmed with the entire setup process. Of course, it will also help many out there that are in your shoes and, perhaps, less organized. You may also get some good advice like I just got from @*Ci* regarding algae and terracotta pots.

I'm also impressed that you set up farm tanks. Most people don't set up farm tanks even when they're quite experienced so that will be a huge leg up for you especially since you're using tissue culture plants. I am a terrible offender in this regard as you can read in my Tissue Culture Kill Tank.

I don't have the time now but I will respond between today and tomorrow with some thoughts for you. Looking forward to your Journal.

 

[Art]

Water - the starting point.

Where are you getting your water from? Is it well-water or city water? If it's city water, can you find the water facility's water quality report that should tell you what's in it.

IMHO, the best will always be to use a home RO unit (I used to use an RODI unit) and then remineralize it to what you want. This way you know what's in it. However, today I use Miami's finest and it works fine.

 

[filmpunk]

Ha, I did see your tissue culture thread, I didn't respond because my use of them might just be pure luck at this point. My water source is city Water, mainly sourced from limestone aquifers. Our water quality report doesn't detail too much....and I'm not sure exactly how accurate it actually is. It shows the highest concentration of Nitrates found was 2.52ppm, however I can say definitively that Nitrates straight from my tap have never dropped below 10, and probably more consistently hover around 20ppm. When I started mixing my own ferts I mixed my Macros without use of any Nitrate. Eventually I reached the point where the plants were using all the nitrates provided from the tap before the end of the week so I had to begin adding a small amount of nitrate to my Macro solution. Having a RO unit would be great, but we're currently renting a house I'm not sure about how to go about the RO unit here outside of maybe a countertop unit. Capacity would be the main issue I think? I haven't really done much research about them because we are renting. Once we buy a house an RO unit would def be more of an option. Currently don't mind transporting the RO if its a better option. When I talked to jeff at ADG he said they only use RO water, as tap water cannot be relied upon for consistency, the make-up of the water can change based on rain, drought, etc and its simply too unpredictible. I know when I was strictly using tap water the only plant I could grow was anubias. Really didn't find much success with other plants until I started diluting it with RO water. Then I ran into the problem of light and Co2 limitation. Co2 has been my biggest limiting factor that I've identified lately which is why I finally decided to take the leap into pressurized Co2. I've used excel but its no replacement for Co2.

 

[Art]

Hey thanks. I also like to search the web for home brewing websites that also have water quality reports for their beer-making. It seems the consensus for San Antonio is pretty hard water. I normally focus more on GH , KH and chlorination rather than any nutrient as I can simply adjust what I add to the water to compensate. With hard water, it's always going to put a limit on what you're able to grow.

I'm in Florida where tap comes from a limestone aquifer as well. However, the municipal treatment process softens it quite a bit using a phosphate technique so they end up with relatively soft water. It's fine. However, they do use chloramines for chlorination and it makes it very hard to dechlorinate the water. When I used RO, I had a double carbon filter to remove the chloramines. Now I use a hefty dose of dechlorinator (double dose).

Before thinking about any other variables, I would recommend you spend some time on your water. It sounds like a minor matter but it isn't. Stable, consistent water forms the basis for everything else. It's very important.

I 100% agree with Jeff in that RO will be your, anyones, best option. It really depends on your willingness to use it consistently over a long period of time. Most people end up automating it like @GreggZ. Mixing tap with RO, to me, is asking for trouble.

So, let's run through an example. I used to rent also so I will describe my setup using your 40g breeder. If you do 50% water changes weekly, as you plan to use EI this is standard, you will need about 20 gallons of RO water weekly.

The day before (or more) before water change day, you need to make up 20 gallons of water. You find a large container (I had a trash bin on wheels that lived in a closet) that I would roll to an empty bathroom. I would place my countertop RO unit next to the bathroom sink and let it run into the bin.


This is an example 4 stage unit you can find on Amazon for $150. It is 100 gallons per day so you need to run it for 4-5 hours to get your 20 gallons.

I would then remineralize in the bin and aerate/mix with a water pump overnight. Aeration is key to fully mix and to stabilize the water. This also allows the water to reach a temp that should be close to your tank's water.

The next day I would roll the bin over to the aquarium. I used a Phyton to drain the tank into the bathroom sink and then the water pump to pump the water into the aquarium.

Water change done for the week. Relatively simple. Allowed me to granularly control my water and I can add fertilizer with confidence know what I'm adding weekly. Plants were flourishing.

Is this what I use today? No. Why? Because it sounds easy but it does become a pain in the butt over time.

I can't tell you how many times I flood the bathroom because I walked away during the 4-5 hour fill stage. Wife DID NOT like that, nor did she appreciate the bathroom looking like a lab experiment for a large part of Saturdays.

I realize that a high-functioning planted aquarium comes with the requirement of sweat equity. However, you need to know yourself and I needed something simpler. I found I can get away with tap water and a Python. Water changes now take me 15 minutes and I'm done before my wife wakes up. Going to do one after this post, as a matter of fact.

Know thyself and go accordingly.

 

[filmpunk]

Art thank you! It's Also water change day for me as well. Definitely understand the sweat equity required, but if I can make even small changes to simplify the routine I'm all for it. Once we buy a house I absolutely plan on automating as much as I can. I've been considering one of those smaller brute trash cans & a rolling base for it just to to simplify my water change routine. Right now I'm transporting jugs of ro water. Usually Friday night or Saturday I will mix my water in 5 gallon buckets so they are allowed to sit, de-gas, and reach temperature equilibrium with the room for a day. The buckets are getting old though. I may just resort to transporting the jugs and pouring them into the trash can, I cannot risk flooding the house because I WILL leave the RO unit unattended. Leaks are already a risk with the canister filter but I will be taking various steps to mitigate the chances. I ordered replacement gaskets when I ordered the pump so they are already on hand in case of emergency. The Pump will be kept in a container inside the stand, and plugged into a hydro check outlet in addition to a water alarm that will also send me a text message if water is detected. As for siphoning I plan on drilling a couple small holes into the intake & outflow pipes to serve as siphon breaks. If there are any leaks hopefully any leaks will be isolated to the container the pump will be residing in.

Luckily for me, my wife is a good sport about all my little projects & mad scientist experiments scattered around the house. She's really come to enjoy the main tank and has witnessed it's improvement over years. She also saw how much time I put into building the stand for the 40 gallon, literally hundreds of hours went into that build, and right now it's just taking up room in the garage. So finally bringing it inside would be great, and I think she knows my vision for this 40b and is excited to see it.

As far as the remineralization, are there any products that you could recommend? I'm assuming initially I would remineralize based on tank volume after that based only upon the amount of water I'm changing each week?

 

[Art]

I would recommend just buying the different ingredients and doing a DIY mix. This gives you the ability to customize and adjust.

 

[gnatster]

Should you go the RO/DI route, take a look at this unit from Air, Water, Ice. Over the years, I've purchased 3 units from them, and they've been around for quite some time. The Mighty Mite versions are simple to hook to a faucet. To prevent accidents, I fill the bucket with the RO water in the sink. In the event I fall asleep or forget, it's not flooding the house. Been there, done that. The landlord was NOT impressed. No more plumbed-in units while I rent.

 

[filmpunk]

I have the GLA GH booster, what would you recommend for KH? Doesn't look like GLA sells anything for KH....

 

[filmpunk]

I have so many questions about this. Correct me if I'm wrong, when RO comes out, is in theory a neutral pH, becoming more acidic as its exposed to air. So when you remineralize are you simply targeting a GH /KH and letting the pH fall where it may or do do you also try to target a specific pH? In addition, once you have remineralized, say you are targeting a GH of 9 & KH of 5, do you factor in the softening properties of a new aquasoil or do you need to readjust your ingredients down the road as those softening properties wear off? I thought I was doing pretty well with my mix, but after actually testing my tank water since starting to use aquasoil it dropped both my GH & KH far lower than I had expected. I also wonder about the affect the Co2 has on the KH over time. Is some of the carbonate in the water lost to the reaction w/ the Co2? I'm doing 50% weekly water changes, but over time SOME amount of that water is remaining in the tank so wouldn't it be continually losing carbonate to the Co2 over time? My understanding of old tank syndrome was due the partial water changes gradually allowing things to build up to a point they became detrimental to the tanks ecosystem. I never took chemistry, but one thing I have learned since being in the hobby is water parameters do not exactly respond the a linear fasion or in what way that might seem reasonable. Using Dilution as the solution has been the only thing that got me to this point. So switching over to RO is uncharted territory for me.

 

[Art]

I have the GLA GH booster, what would you recommend for KH? Doesn't look like GLA sells anything for KH....

Potassium bicarbonate or baking soda.

 

[Art]

So with RO, you need to forget about the pH and focus on targeting nutrients and hardness. Your mission is to make it as consistent as you can with the water you put into the tank.

Soil substrates will impact parameters but that’s what testing is for. Initially, they will guzzle KH but then they stabilize. CO2 won’t impact your KH.

Please note some of us run with zero KH in our tanks.

 

[Jeff Miotke]

I have so many questions about this. Correct me if I'm wrong, when RO comes out, is in theory a neutral pH, becoming more acidic as its exposed to air. So when you remineralize are you simply targeting a GH /KH and letting the pH fall where it may or do do you also try to target a specific pH? In addition, once you have remineralized, say you are targeting a GH of 9 & KH of 5, do you factor in the softening properties of a new aquasoil or do you need to readjust your ingredients down the road as those softening properties wear off? I thought I was doing pretty well with my mix, but after actually testing my tank water since starting to use aquasoil it dropped both my GH & KH far lower than I had expected. I also wonder about the affect the Co2 has on the KH over time. Is some of the carbonate in the water lost to the reaction w/ the Co2? I'm doing 50% weekly water changes, but over time SOME amount of that water is remaining in the tank so wouldn't it be continually losing carbonate to the Co2 over time? My understanding of old tank syndrome was due the partial water changes gradually allowing things to build up to a point they became detrimental to the tanks ecosystem. I never took chemistry, but one thing I have learned since being in the hobby is water parameters do not exactly respond the a linear fasion or in what way that might seem reasonable. Using Dilution as the solution has been the only thing that got me to this point. So switching over to RO is uncharted territory for me.

Art is correct. Just fyi…This topic is well covered on 2hraquarist site under Water parameters. See if that also helps answering your questions enough to give you confidence in choosing your approach. And Id be curious to hear your plan then?

 

[filmpunk]

Well I'm currently in an experimentation phase so while I have these farm tanks set up I think I will try just remineralizing RO for those 2 tanks. If it's easy enough & has good results I'll prob plan on moving forward with that for the 40b. Already sort of leaning toward it just for stability, not knowing the composition of the tap from week to week just leaves way too many variables.

 

[Naturescapes_Rocco]

My process for RO water:

Add directly to tank (no need for dechlorinator if you have carbon prefilters).
Add CaSO4 to about 25ppm Ca
Add MgSO4 (epsom salts) to about 5ppm Mg

Measure the powders with a jewelry (drug) scale during water change. Just dose the powders into moving water in the tank directly.

This results in about 5-6d GH

Use rotalabutterfly to calculate ppm necessary for the volume of water you're adding.

I get my CaSO4 and MgSO4 (and all nutrient salts) from GLA ferts. $5 for 1lb of the stuff will last for a long while.

pH will be dependent on whether you have aquasoil/driftwood (lower) or certain stones like seiryu (higher). I run zero KH tanks without any issue at all, so I don't remineralize KH.

 

[filmpunk]

Beautiful tanks. So without KH, there really is no buffer capacity in the tank correct? What I'm uneasy about running with no KH is the unstable pH that could occur if say a mistake was made or caused by some other factor. I will be using quite a bit of driftwood and some inert rock. I love seiryu stone but honestly don't understand how anyone is able to use it. I bought quite a bit of it. But after running some tests even in my liquid rock high pH tap water it continued making the water even harder.

 

[Art]

I understand about feeling uneasy about a zero KH. We explain more about it in the Mystery of KH and running with zero KH thread. It really isn't an issue unless you have fauna that requires KH or known to prefer a particular pH for some reason. The myth of pH crashes isn't really a thing.

I have seiryu stone in my aquarium and it definitely increases hardness. However, my weekly water changes deal with that easily.

It's like shaving. You shave today, my beard regrows, and I have to shave again tomorrow.

 

[filmpunk]

The problem I had was the amount it was increasing my hardness. I know at a certain point it would eventually level off, but even with 50% water changes it kept creeping higher by the end of the week, after a few weeks I just gave up on it and started looking into other stone options

 

[Art]

You need to find the amount of water change that will result in stability. For me, it was a 70% water change weekly.

If you don't want to deal with that, then yes, another option is needed.

 

[Naturescapes_Rocco]

So without KH, there really is no buffer capacity in the tank correct?

Correct, which is totally fine. Read this article!

What I'm uneasy about running with no KH is the unstable pH that could occur

I understand the thought, but it's not a problem and never really was in this hobby. My main tank swings by at least 1.4pH every day just from CO2 injection.

if say a mistake was made or caused by some other factor.

What other factor? Unless you spill some vinegar into the tank, very few factors other than daily CO2 are going to cause swings in pH. Which are, again, fine. The old myth of pH "crashes" in planted tanks causing issues to livestock are more likely actually due to ammonia spikes or something else.
Worry less about this, friend! Don't stress about pH or KH. Focus on GH , N, P, K, and micros.